From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 09:23:52 1994 Received: from munnari.oz.au (munnari.OZ.AU [128.250.1.21]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA01663 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 09:23:34 +0100 Received: from latcs1.lat.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA13649; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 18:10:34 +1100 (from pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au) Received: by latcs1.lat.oz.au (5.67b/1.34) id AA23362; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 18:08:40 +1100 From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears) Message-Id: <199403010708.AA23362@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Subject: Re: Maybe the Horse Will Sing To: waltner@stolaf.edu (Wallace J Waltner) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 18:08:40 +1100 (EST) Cc: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu, NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu In-Reply-To: <9403010559.AA11610@inga1.acc.stolaf.edu> from "Wallace J Waltner" at Feb 28, 94 11:59:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2881 Status: RO > From sca-west-owner@ecst.csuchico.edu Tue Mar 1 17:31:37 1994 > >The claim to homogeneity which Their Majesties make was untrue even > >before January 22. To be sure, we share commonalities, but is the > >game played in the East the same as the game played in the Outlands? > >Are the rules of the Midrealm the same as the rules of the West? > >I think not. What exists is a veneer of common culture and a great > >deal of kingdom variation in which two things are most important: > >a respect for the differences between kingdoms and a commitment to > >play the game we love together, despite those differences. > > You amplify our differences while belittling our similarities. Yes, > we have differences, but we have many more commonalities than you are > willing to admit. We need those similarities in order for > inter-kingdom play to occur. Because we all share a common bond in > SCA, when there are differences, we can say "You play it your way, and > we'll play it our way. When we get together, we'll figure out a > compromise." Without that common bond, those compromises will dwindle > away into nothingness. Greetings, I think there is a problem here to do with interpretation of what is happening. The way I read the Estrella Compact I thought it said that the Kingdoms realised that there was a true separation between corporate management and the SCA game. Some people think this is true, others do not. This is what causes differences of opinion like the above. I personally believe that the SCA game is the sum of it's participants and if they agree to continue to maintain a centralised set of rules adhered to by a confederation of Kingdoms then inter-domain interaction is promoted and controlled and nothing will be lost by letting the corporate entity go to the wall. In my mind what is important is the people and the game, these will evolve as they continue to do, but I see their evolution as largely independent of the BOD. After all the USA is a confederation of states each with separate laws etc, and it seems to work OK, or does it? I think the recognition that we all are interested in playing a common game, and an undertaking to preserve that game irrespective of the recent corporate actions is a noble aim, and one that I fully support. It is my belief that it is only through such a committment that the current crisis can be completely averted and decentralisation adopted Yours faithfully, Arenwald von Hagenburg, OL. Barony of Stormhold Principality of Lochac West Kingdom. -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Arnold Pears. Computer Sci. Dept. AARNET : pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au La Trobe Uni., Bundoora Vic. 3083, Australia. "Well here we all are then." Office: +61 3 479-1144 -ME ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 09:36:14 1994 Received: from decnet.sunet.se (decnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA01820 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 09:36:12 +0100 From: bronia@ar.sunet.se Received: from AR.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by decnet.sunet.se (5.57/2.01) id AA25378; Tue, 1 Mar 94 09:36:02 +0100 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 09:36:02 +0100 Message-Id: <9403010836.AA25378@decnet.sunet.se> To: "Nordmark@ludd.luth.se"@kth.sunet.se Subject: Lagfoerslaget Status: RO Bronia kommenterar kommentarerna paa mitt debattinlaegg: *> Bronia p] prath}gen. *> *> Jag t|nkte bara g}ra ett mycket litet inl|gg i debatten om lagf}rslaget. *> Jag tycker att Padde har r|tt i fr]ga om fursteparets makt, dvs att *> deras faktiska makt ska minimeras s] mycketsom m}jligt. Detta bl.a f}r *> att kronorna ska g}ras s] lite ]tr]v|rda som m}jligt. D|rigenom kanske *> vi slipper en del av det allvar, tjafs och skitsnack som har varit s] *> dominerande vid de tv] krontorneringar som hittills h]llits i Drachen- *> wald. * Ibland blir man raett besviken paa folk...suck. Vad aer det foer *vits att haalla paa med att foersoeka aaterskapa en tidsperiod om vi helt *struntar i hur det fungerade. Oj, det aer nog foersta gaangen som jag blir beskylld foer att inte vilja vara tillraeckligt autentisk. Ofta brukar jag foerespraaka de historiska foerebilderna, dock inte i det haer fallet pga flera skael. Goer man en tillbakablick paa hur Sverige valde sina kungar paa medeltiden (laes 1250 - 1457) saa finner man just att de VALDES vid en sten paa Mora aeng i Lagga socken ca 1 mil sydost om Uppsala. Dessutom var kungen tvungen att bekraefta valet av sig genom att resa paa eriksgata. Och varfoer inte citera ett stycke ur den aeldre Vaestgoeta- lagen: "Svear aega konung att taga, saa ock att vraeka." Det fattar ju vem som helst (t.o.m. jag) att det systemet inte skulle fungera i SCA/Nordmark. Det finns en mycket viktig liten mening som man ofta hoer citerad i foereningen, naemligen att "Vi aaterskapar medeltiden som den kanske borde ha varit." Nu inser man ju laett att alla i den kaenda vaerlden kommer att ha olika aasikter om hur det borde ha varit och daa aer det viktigt att man respekterar vad andra tycker. I den haer fraagan tycker jag att det rent byraakratiska i foereningen har kronorna inte saa mycket att goera med. Praktiska regler om hur den anakronistiska foerenigen ska fungera borde staa utanfoer den medeltida leken och daerfoer inte heller styras av denna. Daeremot faar man inte gloemma den makt och det inflytande som fursteparet aendaa kommer att ha. Det aer de som delar ut utmaerkelser, haaller hov, beslutar (i samraad med drotsen) om var och naer krontorneringar och kroeningar kommer att haallas. Dessutom tycker jag att man kan se dem som aembetsmaen och daerigenom har de raett att var med och besluta om saker och ting paa aembetsmannamoeten. Jag tycker alltsaa inte att fursteparet ska ha mer att saega till om aen drotsen. * Naer skall folk laera sig att skilja paa lek och verklighet. Den *feodala strukturen aer en lek. Ingen "krona" i den Kaenda Vaerlden ger *dig naagra som helst foerdelar i det mundana livet. Det ger dig en posi- *tion inom leken !!! Foer vaeldigt maanga aer SCA tyvaerr mer aen en lek. Jag haaller med om att det aer traakigt att det ska behoeva vara saa. Det aer ganska maanga som ser SCA som chansen att komma upp sig haer i livet. Haer faar man ju liksom ett kvitto paa hur bra man aer i form av antalet titlar man faar laegga till sitt namn. Dessutom aer SCA en ganska stor del av folks liv. Personligen tillbringar jag ca 1 maanad per aar paa SCA-evenemang. En tolftedel av mitt liv alltsaa. * Anledningen till att det blir tjafs beror oftast paa att de som aer *ansvariga inte vaagar ta sitt ansvar och fatta beslut. Det har inte med *systemet utan med personerna att goera. *Hade inte Vanna tagit tag i sakerna paa siste Krontornerinen saa vet jag *inte hur det hade slutat. Sjaelvklart aer det viktigt att de ansvariga tar tag i saker och krontorneringen kommer enligt mitt tycke aeven i fortsaettningen att vara det sittande fursteparets omraade. Maerk dock att daer fattas inga beslut om hur foereningen ska fungera. Vad det gaeller den beslutande makten i andra fraagor saa aer ju det ett av de klagomaal man brukar hoera fraan regenter att de staendigt maaste kunna fatta snabba beslut och att de tillbringar saa mycket tid med pappersgoera. Varfoer inte goera tvaa flugor paa smaellet och oeverlaata beslutandet paa tinget och aembetsmannamoetena? *> Som jag ser det s] ska fursteparet bara vara galjonsfigurer i v]r *> medeltida teaterlek. Sj|lvklart ska de ha r|tt att besluta om sm]saker *> vid evenemang (som Ragnvald gjorde), men i st}rre fr]gor om t.ex lagen *> och annat som p]verkar alla medlemmar i Nordmark b}r de inte ha st}rre *> inflytande |n vanliga medlemmar. * Ja och nej. Jag anser att det skall finnas en balans mellan den *furstliga makten och den folkliga. Det foerslag som Laggruppen kommit ut *med aer en intressant och bra loesning. Taenk paa att Fursteparen kommer *att bytas ut regelbundet, saa gaar det inte med ett par faar man vael foer- *soeka med naesta. Om flera furstepar i rad tycker att foerslaget aer ej *oenskvaert saa kanske det kan vara sant...;) ! Jag aer vael medveten om att vi redan har gjort ganska radikala aendringar i lagen jaemfoert med vad som aer gaengse i SCA. Foerslaget aer baettre aen hur det "brukar vara" och hur det fungerar aer vael i princip omoejligt att foerutse innan man har provat. Med stoertsa sannolikhet kommer det att ga bra foer jag tror inte att vi kommer att faa naagra "galningar" paa tronerna, men moejligheten finns... * Om fursteparen goers till enbart galjonsfigurer saa har vi skapat *en tom och vaerdeloes institution....saa varfoer bry oss ? Aeven om du inte tycker att kronan aer intressant om man miskar ned dess byraakratiska inflytande saa tror jag nog att det finns andra som gillar titlar, aera, beroemmelse, uppvaktning, att dela ut utmaerkelser, tjusiga kronor, hoega positioner i rangrullan etc. Jag tycker att allt som kan goeras foer att minska kampen om kronan aer bra aeven om det haer inte laer goera det saa mycket. Nu har jag missat en JAETTEKUL foerelaesning i Teknisk stroemningslaera bara foer att skriva det haer som foermodligen aer det laengsta jag har skrivit till prathoegen. Nu kommer jag att resa bort ett par dagar (ifall naagon undrar varfoer jag inte vaagar svara). *At the Ting !!! *Morgan// *Helt mundant...;) Tack foer kommentarerna. Det aer alltid kul att diskutera och det laer bli mer paa tinget. Vi ses daer om inte foerr! Haelsningar fraan Bronia From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 10:46:11 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA02928 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 10:46:09 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA13896 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 10:46:03 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403010946.KAA13896@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Furstepar & Drots To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 10:46:01 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Hej allihopa. Peder h{r! Bronia och kung Morgan har bl_a debatterat regenternas roll i det det kommande furtend|met Nordmark, och jag jag m}ste tillst} att jag varken vill h}lla med n}gon av dem eller s{ga emot dem. Ist{llet vill inta en st{llning tv{rtemot deras }sikter :-) Man kan se hela v}r verksamhet som en massa resurser som s{tts i arbete. Det {r s}dana saker som arbetsinsatser, lokaler, material, samt {ven pengar. Hur dessa resurser anv{nds, best{ms till st|rsta delen av dem som skapat dem: man jobbar p} sitt eget projekt, i sin egen lokal, med material som man skaffat sj{lv, och betalar ocks} sj{lv. Vem "man" {r h{r, kan variera. Det kan vara en enskild person, ett hush}ll eller en lokal grupp. Det kan ocks} vara Nordmark. Vi har, fast{n det verkar otroligt, resurser som st{lls till Nordmarks f|rfogande (och {ven Drachenwlads f|rfogande), och jag ser fr}gan som: Vem har r{tt att besluta |ver hur dessa resurser ska utnyttjas? Min personliga }sikt {r att Nordmarks furstepar ska pr{gla s{ttet vi }terskapar medeltiden, medan Drotsen ser till att g}r att g|ra i den mundana v{rld vi trots allt lever i. I det scenariot avg|r drotsen vilka resurser som finns tillg{ngliga, medan fursteparet best{mmer hur de ska anv{ndas. Ett exempel: Det ska h}llas furstetornering. Fursteparet ger direktiv om vilken stil denna ska ha (i det h{r fallet ren{ssans). Drotsen g}r igenom alla de bud som kommer in (man kan v{l f} dr|mma :-), och s}llar bort dem som {r orealistiska, varefter fursteparet v{ljer bland dem som {r kvar. Ett annat exempel: Fursteparet vill att man skaffar regalier som passar just dem (dvs byzantinskt), varvid drotsen talar om hur mycket av kassan som finns tillg{ngligt f|r just detta. Naturligtvis {r exemplen lite stelbenta, och i ett verkligt fall {r det mer invecklat, med fler parter inblandade, och diskutioner mellan alla parter. Men kanske huvudlinjer g}r fram. Jag m}ste ocks} kommentera Bronia lite... > ... fursteparets ... faktiska makt ska minimeras s] mycket som m}jligt. > Detta bl.a f|r att kronorna ska g}ras s] lite ]tr]v|rda som m}jligt. : > ... fursteparet bara vara galjonsfigurer i v]r medeltida teaterlek. > Sj|lvklart ska de ha r|tt att besluta om sm]saker vid evenemang, men i > st}rre fr]gor om t.ex lagen och annat som p]verkar alla medlemmar i > Nordmark b}r de inte ha st}rre inflytande |n vanliga medlemmar. : > Daeremot faar man inte gloemma den makt och det inflytande som fursteparet > aendaa kommer att ha. Eftersom det inneb{r visst inflytande att sitta p} furtetronerna, m}ste vi se till att det hamnar vettigt folk d{r. D{rf|r m}ste vi g|ra posten (}tminstone lite) }tr}v{rd, vilket (enligt min mening) b{st g|rs genom att ge dem viss makt Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu@celsiustech.se From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 10:54:49 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA03005 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 10:54:40 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 09:52:49 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA24956; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 10:54:15 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403010954.AA24956@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: Lagfoerslaget To: bronia@ar.sunet.se Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 10:54:14 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <9403010836.AA25378@decnet.sunet.se>; from "bronia@ar.sunet.se" at Mar 1, 94 9:36 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Bronia kommenterar kommentarerna paa mitt debattinlaegg: > *> Bronia p] prath}gen. > *Morgan aa samma prathoeg... > * Ibland blir man raett besviken paa folk...suck. Vad aer det foer > *vits att haalla paa med att foersoeka aaterskapa en tidsperiod om vi helt > *struntar i hur det fungerade. > > Goer man en tillbakablick paa hur Sverige valde sina kungar paa > medeltiden (laes 1250 - 1457) saa finner man just att de VALDES vid en > sten paa Mora aeng i Lagga socken ca 1 mil sydost om Uppsala. Dessutom > var kungen tvungen att bekraefta valet av sig genom att resa paa > eriksgata. Och varfoer inte citera ett stycke ur den aeldre Vaestgoeta- > lagen: "Svear aega konung att taga, saa ock att vraeka." Jag hade inte klagat om vi hade anvaent systemet med Mora stenar etc...aeven Eriksgata, saa laenge man fick tionde av folket och det endast gaellde Nordmark (Sverige)... ;) > Det fattar ju vem som helst (t.o.m. jag) att det systemet inte skulle > fungera i SCA/Nordmark. Det finns en mycket viktig liten mening som man > ofta hoer citerad i foereningen, naemligen att "Vi aaterskapar > medeltiden som den kanske borde ha varit." Nu inser man ju laett att > alla i den kaenda vaerlden kommer att ha olika aasikter om hur det borde > ha varit och daa aer det viktigt att man respekterar vad andra tycker. Varfoer skulle det inte fungera ? Politiska skael ? Det aer sant att detta skulle gynna dem som aer smidiga politiker....fraagan aer om det aer den typen av medeltid vi vill aaterskapa..? > I den haer fraagan tycker jag att det rent byraakratiska i foereningen > har kronorna inte saa mycket att goera med. Praktiska regler om hur den > anakronistiska foerenigen ska fungera borde staa utanfoer den medeltida > leken och daerfoer inte heller styras av denna. Helt riktigt, det aer daerfoer vi har SKA/Nordmark, foer att han- tera externa situationer som involverar mundana myndigheter etc. Saa som lagen aer skriven saa har inte heller Fursteparet naagon paaverkan paa denna externa/mundana foerening. > Daeremot faar man inte gloemma den makt och det inflytande som > fursteparet aendaa kommer att ha. Det aer de som delar ut utmaerkelser, > haaller hov, beslutar (i samraad med drotsen) om var och naer krontorneringar > och kroeningar kommer att haallas. Dessutom tycker jag att man kan se > dem som aembetsmaen och daerigenom har de raett att var med och besluta > om saker och ting paa aembetsmannamoeten. Jag tycker alltsaa inte att > fursteparet ska ha mer att saega till om aen drotsen. Skillnaden mellan Furstepar och aembetsmaen aer att Fursteparet aer beslutande organ och aembetsmaennen exekverande. I vissa fall kan Fursteparet ha delegerat beslutandraetten till aembetsmaennen. Att vara aembetsman aer att vara en tjaenare aat folket, samt en buffert mellan Kronan och folket. Man kan se det som ett krigsspel. Strategin laeggs upp av Kronan, taktiken av aembetsmaennen.... ;) ! > Foer vaeldigt maanga aer SCA tyvaerr mer aen en lek. Jag haaller med om > att det aer traakigt att det ska behoeva vara saa. Det aer ganska maanga > som ser SCA som chansen att komma upp sig haer i livet. Haer faar man ju > liksom ett kvitto paa hur bra man aer i form av antalet titlar man faar > laegga till sitt namn. Dessutom aer SCA en ganska stor del av folks liv. > Personligen tillbringar jag ca 1 maanad per aar paa SCA-evenemang. En > tolftedel av mitt liv alltsaa. Sant, sant, sant....suck...! > Sjaelvklart aer det viktigt att de ansvariga tar tag i saker och > krontorneringen kommer enligt mitt tycke aeven i fortsaettningen att > vara det sittande fursteparets omraade. Maerk dock att daer fattas inga > beslut om hur foereningen ska fungera. Vad det gaeller den beslutande > makten i andra fraagor saa aer ju det ett av de klagomaal man brukar > hoera fraan regenter att de staendigt maaste kunna fatta snabba beslut > och att de tillbringar saa mycket tid med pappersgoera. Varfoer inte > goera tvaa flugor paa smaellet och oeverlaata beslutandet paa tinget och > aembetsmannamoetena? Det aer oftast inte sjaelva besluten som aer problemet, utan genomfoerandet av besluten. Folk blir saa emotionellt oeverladdade att de inte har klart foer sig vad fakta aer. Dessutom fattas de viktiga besluten, som lagaendringar paa Tinget ! Lagen aer det enda stora. Vilka andra stora beslut finns det ? > Jag aer vael medveten om att vi redan har gjort ganska radikala > aendringar i lagen jaemfoert med vad som aer gaengse i SCA. Foerslaget > aer baettre aen hur det "brukar vara" och hur det fungerar aer vael i > princip omoejligt att foerutse innan man har provat. Med stoertsa > sannolikhet kommer det att ga bra foer jag tror inte att vi kommer att > faa naagra "galningar" paa tronerna, men moejligheten finns... Men den moejligheten finns alltid, oberoende av system foer val ! > * Om fursteparen goers till enbart galjonsfigurer saa har vi skapat > *en tom och vaerdeloes institution....saa varfoer bry oss ? > > Aeven om du inte tycker att kronan aer intressant om man miskar ned dess > byraakratiska inflytande saa tror jag nog att det finns andra som gillar > titlar, aera, beroemmelse, uppvaktning, att dela ut utmaerkelser, tjusiga > kronor, hoega positioner i rangrullan etc. > Jag tycker att allt som kan goeras foer att minska kampen om kronan > aer bra aeven om det haer inte laer goera det saa mycket. Vad jag har upplevt som det baesta med att regera, foerutom att beloena foertjaenta personer..;) aer att man kunnat paaverka t.ex Drachen- walds march mot Kungarike. Det har inget med byraakratiskt inflytande att goera, det byraakratiska inflytandet ligger paa andra staellen, t.ex hos aembetsmaennen.... ;) > Nu har jag missat en JAETTEKUL foerelaesning i Teknisk stroemningslaera > bara foer att skriva det haer som foermodligen aer det laengsta jag har > skrivit till prathoegen. Nu kommer jag att resa bort ett par dagar (ifall > naagon undrar varfoer jag inte vaagar svara). Jag tror nog att du vaagar..;) Trist med din foerelaesning...! > Tack foer kommentarerna. Det aer alltid kul att diskutera och det laer > bli mer paa tinget. Vi ses daer om inte foerr! Saekert..he, he.... ;) Morgan// Mundan.....! -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 11:12:22 1994 Received: from decnet.sunet.se (decnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA03257 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 11:12:22 +0100 From: bronia@ar.sunet.se Received: from AR.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by decnet.sunet.se (5.57/2.01) id AA25741; Tue, 1 Mar 94 11:12:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 11:12:10 +0100 Message-Id: <9403011012.AA25741@decnet.sunet.se> To: "Nordmark@ludd.luth.se"@kth.sunet.se Subject: Snabbis Status: RO Hejsan! Det daer med att inte vaaga svara skrev jag foer att jag inte kommer att KUNNA svara paa nagot eftersom jag aer bortrest. Daa kan ju naagon tro att jag inte vaagar svara. Nu har jag inte tid att kommentera eftersom jag inte vill missa enfoerelaesning till (i ytkemi). Ha det saa bra! Haelsningar fraan Bronia From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 13:15:03 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA04647 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 13:15:01 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id NAA15836 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 13:14:57 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403011214.NAA15836@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: Lagfoerslaget To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 13:14:53 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Peder h{r. Morgan skriver: > Skillnaden mellan Furstepar och aembetsmaen aer att Fursteparet > aer beslutande organ och aembetsmaennen exekverande. I vissa fall kan > Fursteparet ha delegerat beslutandraetten till aembetsmaennen. Detta {r inte en |verallt g{llande sanning. Kanske {r det Morgans bild av medeltiden "som den borde ha varit", och jag kan h}lla med om att den bilden har vissa meriter. Men den {r inte min, och jag vet flera andra som ocks} tycker annorlunda. I mitt tycke {r det inte fel att ge {mbetsm{nnen makt. Deras jobb m}ste ocks} f} vara intressant. F} ge m|jligheter att s{tta pr{gel p} livet i Nordmark. Inte bara genom att uppfylla regenternas |nskem}l. Det kan vara hur medeltida som helst, men jag tror att om {mbetm{nnen k{nner att de f}r fatta sina beslut bara p_g_a fursteparet n}diga vlja, men egentligen {r utl{mnade }t deras godtycke, s} blir frustrationen mycket stor. De g|r ett d}ligt jobb, och det blir sv}rt att hitta folk till stolarna. Hela Nordmark blir lidande. Ja, jag tror faktiskt att det {r just _denna_ k{nsla av maktl|shet som Nordmarks folk vill slippa. Och att det {r detta som nu s} tydligt avspeglat sig i lagf|rslag och kommentarer. Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu@celsiustech.se From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 14:22:50 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA05595 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:22:47 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA13667 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:22:36 +0100 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:22:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199403011322.AA13667@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: leeu@celsiustech.se Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Leif Euren's message of Tue, 1 Mar 94 13:14:53 MET DST <199403011214.NAA15836@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Makt From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William de Corbie h{r. Som vanligt m}ste jag l{gga min n{sa i bl|t. :-) Jag tycker att makt kan vara olika saker i SCA. En sorts makt {r den teatraliska, d{r en dignit{r ger befallningar som genast }tlyds, till exempel vid en fest eller ett hov, osv. Under ett krig kan h{rf|raren befalla sina styrkor p} milit{rt vis. Allt detta {r en del av leken, och den sortens makt {r rolig f|r alla inblandade parter (oftast). Jag menar, n{r kungen ropar en befallning {r det inte bara s} att han ut|var makt, utan han ger ocks} sin unders}te ett tillf{lle att spela ut. En annan sorts makt {r den administrativa, d{r en {mbetsman har en viss frihet att s{tta sin pr{gel p} det han g|r. Trots allt {r det ju den som g|r jobbet, som best{mmer hur det g|rs. Denna makt {r mycket begr{nsad. H{rolden kan inte v{gra registrera ett vapen bara f|r att han sj{lv vill kr{kas vid }synen. Kr|nik|ren kan inte l}ta bli att publicera de manus han f}r, utom om det finns mycket goda sk{l. Man m}ste g|ra sin plikt -- men {nd} s{tter man sin pr{gel p} det man g|r. Den politiska makten {r den starkaste och potentiellt mest destruktiva. Denna makt kan aldrig bli absolut eftersom det inte finns n}gra tv}ngs- medel i f|reningar. Om man anv{nder makt p} ett politiskt s{tt, driver man bort folk fr}n f|reningen, orsakar splittringar, och minskar de makthavandes anseende och prestige. D{rf|r {r det alltid b{st att arbeta med |vertalning och med uppfostran, f} alla att dra }t samma h}ll s} att man slipper ta till makt. Om man beh|ver st{lla fr}gan: "Vem har den h|gsta makten?" s} tror jag att man redan befinner sig p} gr{nsen till en kris. William From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 14:23:00 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA05596 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:22:48 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 13:21:01 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA29605; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:22:35 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403011322.AA29605@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: Furstepar & Drots To: leeu@celsiustech.se (Leif Euren) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 14:22:34 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <199403010946.KAA13896@world.celsiustech.se>; from "Leif Euren" at Mar 1, 94 10:46 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Hej allihopa. Peder h{r! > Bronia och kung Morgan har bl_a debatterat regenternas roll i det det > kommande furtend|met Nordmark, och jag jag m}ste tillst} att jag > varken vill h}lla med n}gon av dem eller s{ga emot dem. Ist{llet vill > inta en st{llning tv{rtemot deras }sikter :-) Tvaertemot vaddaa ? ;) > Man kan se hela v}r verksamhet som en massa resurser som s{tts i arbete. > Det {r s}dana saker som arbetsinsatser, lokaler, material, samt {ven pengar. [stuff deleted] > Vi har, fast{n det verkar otroligt, resurser som st{lls till Nordmarks > f|rfogande (och {ven Drachenwlads f|rfogande), och jag ser fr}gan som: Vem > har r{tt att besluta |ver hur dessa resurser ska utnyttjas? > > Min personliga }sikt {r att Nordmarks furstepar ska pr{gla s{ttet vi > }terskapar medeltiden, medan Drotsen ser till att g}r att g|ra i den mundana > v{rld vi trots allt lever i. I det scenariot avg|r drotsen vilka resurser > som finns tillg{ngliga, medan fursteparet best{mmer hur de ska anv{ndas. Sure, detta aer inte ett motsatts foerhaallande till det som sagts tidigare, utan snarare ett komplement. [stuff deleted] > Eftersom det inneb{r visst inflytande att sitta p} furtetronerna, m}ste vi > se till att det hamnar vettigt folk d{r. D{rf|r m}ste vi g|ra posten > (}tminstone lite) }tr}v{rd, vilket (enligt min mening) b{st g|rs genom att > ge dem viss makt Se skillnad mellan LEK och VERKLIGHET ! Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 15:43:33 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA06627 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 15:43:30 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:41:42 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA01750; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 15:43:14 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403011443.AA01750@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: Makt To: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 15:43:13 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <199403011322.AA13667@meryl.csd.uu.se>; from "vader@meryl.csd.uu.se" at Mar 1, 94 2:22 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > William de Corbie h{r. > > Som vanligt m}ste jag l{gga min n{sa i bl|t. :-) [good stuff deleted] Bravo William !!! AEntligen !!! ;) ;) ;) Paa pricken !!! Haelsningar Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 16:50:11 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA07649 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 16:50:04 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 15:48:10 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA02971; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 16:49:48 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403011549.AA02971@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Makt et al.. To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 16:49:48 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Peder h{r. > > Morgan skriver: > > Skillnaden mellan Furstepar och aembetsmaen aer att Fursteparet > > aer beslutande organ och aembetsmaennen exekverande. I vissa fall kan > > Fursteparet ha delegerat beslutandraetten till aembetsmaennen. > > Detta {r inte en |verallt g{llande sanning. Kanske {r det Morgans bild av > medeltiden "som den borde ha varit", och jag kan h}lla med om att den bilden > har vissa meriter. Men den {r inte min, och jag vet flera andra som ocks} > tycker annorlunda. Jag har aldrig antytt att det aer saa medeltiden borde ha varit eller borde vara. Det aer tydligt att folk har svaart att skilja paa vad som aer lek respektive allvar, vad som aer "makt" eller "maktloes"...suck... I leken saa aer det Kronan som bestaemmer och aembetsmaennen som exekverar. I verkligheten aer det, liksom oevar allt annars, naagot mitt- emellan. > I mitt tycke {r det inte fel att ge {mbetsm{nnen makt. Deras jobb m}ste > ocks} f} vara intressant. F} ge m|jligheter att s{tta pr{gel p} livet i > Nordmark. Inte bara genom att uppfylla regenternas |nskem}l. Att "saetta praegel paa livet i Nordmark"..oj, oj, oj...min vaenner, det goer vi allihop, hela tiden. Nordmark aer INTE kronan eller aembets- maennen, Nordmark aer VI, allihop tillsammans. Vi saetter gemensam "praegel" paa Nordmark. Vad vi goer aer att LEKA naagon slags quasi-feodalism, foer att goera det har vi Kungar och Furstar etc. Deras MAKT...he, he..han sa det magiska ordet..;), aer 0, Zero, Ingen, Nada..etc. Vad vi goer aer att skapa en illusion av makt, genom konstgjord utmaerkelser etc. Om folk inte gillar ett beslut fattat av Kronan eller aembetsmaennen saa aer det bara att strunta i det.....jag menar vad skall de goera, anmaela dig foer polisen ? ;) ;) ;). Det "vaersta" som kan haenda aer att man blir till- faelligt foervisad, dvs man faar ej deltaga paa samma evenemang som Kronan. Detta upphoer att gaella naer naesta par tilltraeder. > Det kan vara hur medeltida som helst, men jag tror att om {mbetm{nnen k{nner > att de f}r fatta sina beslut bara p_g_a fursteparet n}diga vlja, men > egentligen {r utl{mnade }t deras godtycke, s} blir frustrationen mycket > stor. De g|r ett d}ligt jobb, och det blir sv}rt att hitta folk till > stolarna. Hela Nordmark blir lidande. Faktum aer, vilket jag sjaelv aer ett bevis paa, att vad Kronan eller aembetsmaennen tycker, inte paaverkar mitt deltagande i SCA's akt- iviteter i det minsta. Naer jag jobbade som marsk foer Nordmark, saa fungerade det aeven naer min sk oeverordnande inte fungerade. I SCA blir det saa som man sjaelv goer det, inte hur andra talar om hur det skall bli. Detta gaeller aeven foer Nordmark som grupp. Saa laenge vi har kul och goer det vi tycker aer kul, saa spelar mycket annat en vaeldigt liten roll. > Ja, jag tror faktiskt att det {r just _denna_ k{nsla av maktl|shet som > Nordmarks folk vill slippa. Och att det {r detta som nu s} tydligt > avspeglat sig i lagf|rslag och kommentarer. "Maktloeshet" ? Vem har egentligen naagon makt haer ? Nu faar vi nog bli lite realistiska...Det som ger naagon makt i SCA aer om naagon har stoed av en stark majoritet. Personlighet aer och kommer alltid att vara en faktor....oberoende av politiskt system... ;) ;) ;) Ciao Morgan// Oj vad jag blev laangrandig...;) ;) ;) -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 17:06:54 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA07852 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 17:06:52 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id RAA20070; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 17:06:47 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403011606.RAA20070@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Makt et al.. To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 94 17:06:45 MET DST Cc: mabr@sweden.hp.com (Morgan Broman) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Peder igen Morgan skriver: > Det aer tydligt att folk har svaart att skilja paa vad > som aer lek respektive allvar, vad som aer "makt" eller "maktloes"...suck... Ja, tyv{rr har m}nga sv}rt att skilja p} lek och alvar. Det {r inte tydligt i dina inl{gg vilken del du menar, och det verkar mest vara leken. William beskrev v{ldigt fint hur makten i leken kan yttra sig, men det {r inte det jag menar. Jag talar/skriver hela tiden om den makten i alvaret, den som ocks} {r f|rknippad med ansvar. Se f.|. vad jag skrev om f|rdelandet av resurser. > Att "saetta praegel paa livet i Nordmark"..oj, oj, oj...mina vaenner, > det goer vi allihop, hela tiden. Nordmark aer INTE kronan eller aembets- > maennen, Nordmark aer VI, allihop tillsammans. Vi saetter gemensam "praegel" > paa Nordmark. Den som har en krona eller ett {mbete har st|rre m|jligheter att s{tta sin pr{gel p} verksamheten, just d{rf|r att folk (de som inte har detta) ser upp till/lyssnar p} dem. Formellt utsedda personer, i vilken position det vara m}, *HAR* st|rre infytande {n gemene man. > Vad vi goer aer att LEKA naagon slags quasi-feodalism, foer > att goera det har vi Kungar och Furstar etc. Deras MAKT aer 0, Zero, > Ingen, Nada..etc. Detta, vill jag h{vda, {r inte riktigt sant. Igen vill jag h{nvisa till mitt inl{gg om resurser. T_ex kan ett furstepar st|dja eller st|ra en lokal grupp genom att komma resp. l}ta bli att komma p} deras evenemang. Eller genom att l{gga andra {n altruistiska v{rderingar i valet av plats f|r furstetornering och investitur. > "Maktloeshet" ? Vem har egentligen naagon makt haer ? Njaee... Jag skrev "k{nslan av maktl|shet", och den kan finnas d{r, utan att det finns n}gon orsak. Psykologi {r besv{rligt, men jag tycker det {r fint om vi kan bygga in tydliga signaler i v}rt system (Nordmarks, alts}) att makten egentligen ligger hos folket, och att vi kan ta tillbaka den n{r det beh|vs. Vad vi g|r, b}de i leken och i alvaret, {r att vi l{mnar |ver makten till v}ra regenter, p} kortare eller l{ngre tid. Sedan {r deras uppgift att samordna denna samlade kraft, s} attden blir utnyttjad till alls b{sta. Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu@celsiustech.se From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 18:38:24 1994 Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net (mailgate.prod.aol.net [192.203.190.181]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA09362 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 18:38:02 +0100 From: chronique@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA23476; Tue, 1 Mar 94 12:36:41 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Sender: "chronique" Message-Id: <9403011236.tn152849@aol.com> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Tue, 01 Mar 94 12:36:37 EST Subject: A Journal of Chivalry Status: RO In the past two months I have been encouraging a dialog on the SCA-West net centering around various topics of the chivalric philosophy and on the encouragment of authenticity around tournament re-enactments. It has been very successful, and would like to know if others would like to participate. Some of the answers to the queries posted will appear, by permission, in our journal Chronique. It's goal is to support and forward the goals listed above. If some of your responses are included, you receive a free copy; it is a quarterly journal available for $16 per year. Since I don't want to take up piles of space in everyone's mailbox, if you are interested in receiving copies of the questions for the upcoming topic, and being added to the Chronique mailing list, please let me know. TO LIST ADMINISTRATORS: If you have an objection to my listing something like the above periodically in your list, please drop me a line! This happened once, to my great surprise; it is my intent by working this dialog to increase the level of consideration given to the chivalric ethic and I appreciate your indulgence. Yours in Service, Brian R. Price, Editor AKA SCA Sir Brion Thornbird ap Rhys, Earl, OL... From nordmark-request Tue Mar 1 19:19:53 1994 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA09812 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:19:52 +0100 Received: from hjds90.hj.se by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.4/2.03) id TAA00569; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:19:46 +0100 Received: by hjds90.hj.se (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.38) id ; Tue, 1 Mar 94 19:19 MET Received: from TRISSE/M_QUEUE by trisse.hj.se (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 19:21:22 GMT+100 Received: from M_QUEUE by TRISSE (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 19:21:19 GMT+100 From: "Padraig / Anders" Organization: H”gskolan i J”nk”ping To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:21:18 MET+1 Subject: Re: Makt Priority: normal X-mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1) Message-ID: <8EAC641D18@trisse.hj.se> Status: RO Gomiddag, Padde h„r. Det verkar som om en hel lavin av kommentarer och argumnent r”rande kronor, makt, lek och allvar sattes i rullning av mina kommentarer till lagen. Skoj :) F”r att †terknyta till vad jag ursprungligen skrev om s† till†ter jag mig att kommentera William: > William de Corbie h{r. > > Som vanligt m}ste jag l{gga min n{sa i bl|t. :-) > > Jag tycker att makt kan vara olika saker i SCA. En sorts makt > {r den teatraliska, d{r en dignit{r ger befallningar som genast > }tlyds, till exempel vid en fest eller ett hov, osv. Under ett > krig kan h{rf|raren befalla sina styrkor p} milit{rt vis. Allt > detta {r en del av leken, och den sortens makt {r rolig f|r > alla inblandade parter (oftast). > > [Stuff deleted] > > En annan sorts makt {r den administrativa, d{r en {mbetsman har > en viss frihet att s{tta sin pr{gel p} det han g|r. Trots allt > {r det ju den som g|r jobbet, som best{mmer hur det g|rs. Denna > makt {r mycket begr{nsad. H{rolden kan inte v{gra registrera ett > vapen bara f|r att han sj{lv vill kr{kas vid }synen. Kr|nik|ren > kan inte l}ta bli att publicera de manus han f}r, utom om det > finns mycket goda sk{l. Man m}ste g|ra sin plikt -- men {nd} s{tter > man sin pr{gel p} det man g|r. > > Den politiska makten {r den starkaste och potentiellt mest destruktiva. > Denna makt kan aldrig bli absolut eftersom det inte finns n}gra tv}ngs- > medel i f|reningar. Om man anv{nder makt p} ett politiskt s{tt, driver > man bort folk fr}n f|reningen, orsakar splittringar, och minskar de > makthavandes anseende och prestige. D{rf|r {r det alltid b{st att > arbeta med |vertalning och med uppfostran, f} alla att dra }t samma > h}ll s} att man slipper ta till makt. Vilket „r precis vad jag ocks† menade, om „n inte i lika f”rklarande och tydliga ordalag. Man m†ste skilja p† lek och allvar har alla inblandade varit r”rande ”verens om. BRA! Det „r ju precis vad jag ocks† har sagt. Kronor „r en del av leken, med allt vad det inneb„r. Det „r _d„r_ de skall ha sin s k makt, h†lla hov, sk„nka "Royal presence", utdela bel”ningar etc. Allvaret, allt arbete bakom f”reningen, har f”ga med leken att g”ra. Det „r d„rf”r som jag menar att det „r omotiverat att bara fursteparet f†r l„mna f”rslag p† „ndringar i lagen. Just nu kan alla intresserade ha synpunkter p† den, s† varf”r inte ge _alla_ m”jlighet till det „ven i framtiden. Det „r f”rvisso riktigt att Nordmarks lagf”rslag „r t„mligen liberalt j„mf”rt med andra, men varf”r inte g† hela v„gen? Det h„r har v„l „nd† f”ga med "Medeltiden som den borde ha varit" att g”ra. Det h„r har n„stan ingenting med medeltiden att g”ra, utan med en medeltidsf”rening! N„r man sitter under ett ting och diskuterar lagf”rslag i Nordmark eller andra fr†gor s† kommer jag knappast att k„nna n†gon st”rre medeltidsk„nsla. Se det som det „r, ett stundtals slitigt modernt jobb f”r att f† dr”mmen mer levande p† evenemang. Argumentet att man kan v„nta en kronperiod med att l„mna in ett f”rslag som studsat hos ett furstepar tycker jag „r helt meningsl”st. Om man kan g”ra n†got bra, varf”r inte g”ra det nu. Inget s„ger att en regent „r b„ttre p† att komma p† kluriga och bra lagar, bara f”r att han/hon vunnit en krontornering eller f†tt n†gon annan att g”ra det †t honom/henne. Žmbetsm„nnen d„remot, de har att g”ra b†de i lek och allvar. En marsk har sin sj„lvklara roll i leken, men till detta h”r att skriva rapporter och kolla p† auktoriseringskort hemma i sitt moderna och trista k”k. Morgan har helt r„tt i att vi alla formar f”reningen, men „mbetsm„nnen har faktiskt st”rre m”jligheter att p†verka, inte minst eftersom folk i allm„nnhet lyssnar mer p† en „mbetsman (f†nigt, eftersom jag inte „r mer kunnig p† f„ktning nu efter det att jag tilltr„tt som marsk i baroniet „n tidigare). Genom de beslut en „mbetsman tar kan han/hon styra „mbetet †t det h†ll han/hon vill. D„rf”r „r det ett stort ansvar att axla „mbetsmannamanteln och likas† ett stort ansvar f”r en „mbetsman att lyssna p† medlemmarna som denne f”rv„ntas tj„na. > Om man beh|ver st{lla fr}gan: "Vem har den h|gsta makten?" s} tror jag > att man redan befinner sig p} gr{nsen till en kris. Helt riktigt, kunde inte sagt det b„ttre sj„lv. Vad jag hojtar om „r inte fursteparets "Makt", utan snarare folkets brist p† detsamma. Efter att †ter ha r”rt om lite i grytan :) M† v„l. Padraig / Anders "It was a night, oh what a night, L.A. burnin' bright, oh what a night" - Shock to the system Billy Idol From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 01:14:50 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA14296 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:14:49 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA26265 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:14:29 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:14:29 +0100 Message-Id: <199403020014.AA26265@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: chronique@aol.com Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: chronique@aol.com's message of Tue, 01 Mar 94 12:36:37 EST <9403011236.tn152849@aol.com> Subject: A Journal of Chivalry From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Thanks for your message concerning a dialog about chivalric matters. I regret to say that while such a discussion would interest me, I am out of time and money. The Rialto and Nordmark's internal mailing list are taking much time, and since I call the network via modem my phone bills are getting horrendous... Thus, I must decline your offer. BTW, we have met. I was at the Caid Crown tournament in San Diego in autumn 1987 and saw some of your armor. I took slides of the display, and they still produce an "oohhh" every time I show them to the people here. Hopefully, I'll get to Caid again some day. Yours, William de Corbie From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 10:49:55 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA20953 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:49:51 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:48:02 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA09650; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:49:41 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403020949.AA09650@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Making Money Flow Uphill (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 10:49:41 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Path: hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dani From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) Subject: Making Money Flow Uphill Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:18:24 GMT Lines: 23 An alternative model of membership is: * If you subscribe to a kingdom newsletter, you are a sustaining member of that kingdom. (Do we need an associate category?) * If you are a member of any kingdom, then you are automatically a member of the SCA. Some of the membership fees are passed to the Corporation to support its services. TI may be bundled into the subscription or might require a separate one. The paperwork is not complex. * If we want to keep membership numbers more or less sequential and unique within the Society, the simplest way to implement this is to have a central registry allocate blocks of 500 or 1000 numbers to Kingdoms, as they're required. Further central record-keeping is optional. ----- Dani of the Seven Wells dani@netcom.com The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part, to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts" -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 11:05:08 1994 Received: from iserver.cccpp.com (iserver.cccpp.com [192.216.208.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA21166 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:04:31 +0100 Received: from [192.216.208.10] by iserver.cccpp.com (5.67/1.37) id AA29869; Wed, 2 Mar 94 01:58:58 -0800 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpgate.cccpp.com id AA762573802 Wed, 02 Mar 94 02:03:22 pst Date: Wed, 02 Mar 94 02:03:22 pst From: ALFRED@cccpp.com (ALFRED) Message-Id: <9402027625.AA762573802@smtpgate.cccpp.com> To: Wallace J Waltner , greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Cc: NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu Subject: Re[2]: Maybe the Horse Will Sing Status: RO Unto Wilhelm Dichtermann, archivist of the Northshield mailing list, greetings from Alfred of Carlyle, Perhaps I can offer an explanation to some of the confusion you have expressed over Hossein's rebuttal. Please note that, while I do not agree with the tone of the learned man's words (and have told him so privately), I agree with much of the sentiment he has so eloquently, if emotionally, expressed. >I hope they do. And of course said transcript will come with your >slanted commentary, I trust. I am responsible for one of the transcripts taken at the 22 January board meeting, the Estrella Crown council on Friday, and the meeting between the Crowns and the two Board members on Saturday. When the Estrella meetings were opened, we who were observers and advisors were cautioned as to the proprietay nature of the discussions that followed. Neither Hossein nor I are at liberty to discuss the proceedings. As of this writing, however, it is my understanding that all of the Crowns of the thirteen Laurel kingdoms now have copies of my transcripts. It is for the Crowns to decide what to do with this information, which is why Hossein begs the Crowns to release this information. If there is any bias in these notes, it is my fault. >Unfortunately, in this case, the fact that the Board says it is so >does make it so. That's what they're there for. That's how this >whole mess started; the Board spent themselves into a corner, creating >an emergency, and now call upon us to bail them out. The Board did >not break Corpora, but they did use it to their advantage. Making >legally shaky accusations doesn't help anything. And here is the crux of the problem. If a patron starts a fire in a theater, raises the alarm, saves everybody through his actions, yet the theater burns down; is the patron an arsonist or a hero? Creating the emergency _is_ the Board's failing, and any subsequent efforts short of taking ownership of their mistake and asking us for help is less than honorable. >And yes, we did speak out. But you know as well as I that the >Midrealm is one of the largest kingdoms in the Known World. You try >canvassing a Kingdom that streches from Winnepeg, Manitoba, Canada to >Lexington, Kentucky and from Rapid City, South Dakota to Youngstown, >Ohio and see how fast it takes you. And even if you can do it fairly >quickly, can you be confident that the opinions you have are a fair >sampling? Simply put, Their Majesties are waiting for a consensus. If they are still waiting for a consensus, how can they presume that their current letter represents the will of their subjects? When will your Crown have its mandate? What will it take? >Herein is one of the primary reasons why Jafar and Cathereine could >not sign: Kingdom Law prohibited it. And Kingdom Law is the code >that we, its citizens, choose to live by. Now I shall walk the grey line I have warned Hossein about: Suffice it to say that, having attended both meetings at Estrella, Jafar and Catherine's letter was the first public explanation of their reason for not signing that I am aware of. >It would still involve extra expense for the Midrealm if the Board is >expanded, whether or not we are currently represented on the Board. >And again Their Majesties are bound by law, and They are honorable in >following it. This is a red herring. The current proposal to expand the Board, as explained in Gregor's letter and signed by several Crowns, is a temporary solution to a very complex problem. If the Board was to remain at the new level, funds would be raised through the normal channels available to the Corporation. There would be no dirrect drain on the Midrealm's coffers, no matter what the outcome. >You're the one who doesn't seem to be listening. You're on your holy >Crusade to Rid The World Of The Evil Corporation while groups like >mine (Nordleigh) are hung out to dry. Or are we going to be the >sacrificial lamb? I would think that this would be your main concern. While I am unfamiliar with your particular group (much to my dismay -- I lived in Northshield for many years and have only been gone for four), your signature indicates that yours is a college. It is your group and the hundreds like it that are at the greatest risk. Your king, valiant as his efforts may seem, has failed on every point to protect your standing with the mundane university with which you are affiliated. Whether its member-for-a-year or member-for-a-day -- what does your college's by-laws say about student body and faculty access to groups and activities that utilize school facilities? >Remember, m'lords and ladies, these are words of respect. >Tell me with a straight face, Your Excellency, that you have >absolutely nothing to gain politically from spearheading the reform >movement. I haven't heard a good joke in years. >Then tell me with a straight face that no King and Queen who signed >the Estrella Documents had absolutely nothing to gain politically from >championing the reform movement. >There always has been, and always will be, personal agendas within the >Society. In fact, this entire conflict is one of personal agendas. >At least Jafar and Catherine have the guts to stand up for what they >believe is right despite its political ramifications. Please take a moment and review what you said. You have indicated that Hossein has an agenda. You have indicted all the Crowns that signed the Estrella documents with having agendas. In both cases, you paint these agendas with a desire for political gain as a result of this reform. If this is true, then why is your Crown immune to such an agenda, and why is it free of any desire for similar glory? Consider this, instead: We all have agendas -- to protect the Society from irreperable damage. Let us presume nobility on all sides -- Board, Crowns, and subjects, and work toward a comprimise that will restore our faith in the governing bodies and _their_ agendas. Your king, knowingly or not, painted everyone in that meeting with a very black brush. How do you think I feel, believing full well that my King was there with the mandate of his people and a desire to serve his kingdom? >Do you really believe that the Board really had malicious intent in >its pay-to-play proposal? I believe the Board really thought it was >doing the right thing. I vehemently disagree with the Board, but it's >ludicrous to think that they puposely wanted to hurt the Society. >Remeber what I said about the Corporation and Society being >interdependent? I do not believe the Board wants to hurt the Society. I now believe the Board is trying to protect its own interests and _will_ hurt the Society in the process. It is as evident as AJ's referring to a 10% increase as a 'stupid, wild-assed guess'. They don't care how many people come or go as long as they can meet their budget. >It obviously wasn't made clear, as there is a difference of opinion. >Bring forth the transcript, if you wish to refute this. This is not up to Hossein. If you would like to see the transcripts, please ask your Royalty. >We all agree that the Board's power needs to be redistributed. That's >a long term goal. Before that, we need to get this dispute settled. >Jafar and Catherine wish to do this calmly and reasonably, and refrain >from using drastic action except as a last resort. Why do you twist >that into opposition? While I appreciate your belief that reform is necessary, I have not seen in any posting of Jafar's, nor in conversations I had with him both prior to and during Estrella, that he believes it is necessary. Jafar and Catherine have never expressed doubts about the actual decisions, or about the authority the Board excercised to make them. They are concerned with how the decisions were announced and what the implementation will eventually look like. If this is not opposition to reform, it is certainly support of the status quo. I do respect your defense of your Crown. I do not envy you in your current plight. Jafar's letter was poorly crafted and insulting to the majority of Crowns and their subjects. I would ask you to consult with him and ask him to clarify his position, perhaps with an apology, so we can better appreciate the value of his arguments. Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom. From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 11:35:07 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA21699 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:35:02 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA14002; Wed, 2 Mar 94 11:36:46 +0100 Subject: Makt? Makt!!! To: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 11:36:09 +0100 Message-Id: <940302.113609.39035@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO K{ra med- och motpratare p} Prath|gen! Med stigande f|rv}ning och f|rvirring har jag den senaste tiden tagit del av den p}g}ende maktdebatten. Ska vi tala om makt i samband med Nordmarks lagf|rslag, s} vill jag rikta er uppm{rksamhet mot S4, 1:a stycket, d{r det bl a st}r att vi lovar att f|lja SCA:s styrelses policybeslut (Board of Directors, allts}). Ingen som har tillg}ng till elektronisk kommunikation har f|rhoppningsvis missat debatten kring styrelsens beslut den 22 januari. Som det nu st}r skrivet, och om vi inte p}verkar sakernas tillst}nd i hela SCA, f|rbinder vi oss allts}: - att f|lja ett beslut som kr{ver att ingen som inte har betalat medlemsavgift till USA f}r delta i v}ra m|ten och evenemang; - skulle n}gon vilja komma in och se vilka vi {r och vad vi sysslar med, m}ste han/hon registreras som tillf{llig medlem, helt i stil med diverse udda sekter; - att lyda en styrelse som har fr}ntagit f|reningens medlemmar r{tten att ta del av styrelseprotokoll (hur f|rh}ller det h{r sig till svensk lag, f|rresten?); - att lyda en styrelse som _utan saklig motivering_ har r|stat fram en |kning, mot 1993, av anslagen till sina egna omkostnader med 137%, till "professionella tj{nster" (juristfirma, bokf|rings- och datakonsulter) med 900% (!) och till kontorsm|bler och datorutrustning med 194%; - att lyda en styrelse som har tillsatt en ordf|rande som talar med f|rakt om att g} p} fest i "kl{nning" (syftande p} medeltida dr{kt); - att lyda en styrelse som vill bel{gga SCA:s namn och logo med copyright och som vill s{lja SCA:s medlemsregister till kontokortsf|retag. Jo, det finns dokumenterat. H|r av er om ni vill ha underlag. L{s t ex Gregory Roses analys av BoD:s budget f|r SCA f|r 1994. Jag tycker det {r underligt att det har varit kompakt tyst p} Prath|gen om den h{r saken. (Eller har min dator haft kontaktsv}righeter?) Det {r gott och v{l att s{ga att vi leker som vi vill och med vem vi vill och amerikanerna ska inte l{gga sig i. Men att skriva n}got in i lagen som man {nd} t{nker strunta i {r att tigga stryk. I dagens l{ge borde vi vara _mycket_ noga med att _|ppet och officiellt_ klarg|ra v}ra relationer till SCA:s styrelse och v}r inst{llning till deras agerande. Ist{llet k{bblar vi om att vissa bland oss eventuellt kan f} mera "makt" under nio m}nader {n andra. Ska vi inte prioritera om, s{tta tv}ngstr|ja p} Jante ett tag och mobilisera hela Nordmark f|r att SCA faktiskt ska kunna forts{tta vara den lek vi i princip trivs med? Ja, nu rusar jag och dyker ner i skyddsrummet. F|rresten, vi ses p} Tinget. Catrin Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 12:50:13 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA23449 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:50:06 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02970; Wed, 2 Mar 94 11:49:32 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:39:57 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:50:18 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:48:03 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:46:38 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:55:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:55:57 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002279000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 575512020394 Message-Id: <575512020394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: titlar p? svenska Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan From: msb/x400po/frithiof *cc: msb/x400po/frithiof Attachment: None BCC recipient Hej, det {r Frithiof. - Tjena, Rabbe (Harte?) har... N}got f|rslag till alternativ medeltida titel f|r vicomter och vicomtessor har jag inte s} h{r p} rak arm. Nu {r ju inte baron, greve eller hertig mer {n n{tt och j{mt ====== "period" heller, det var Erik XIV som inf|rde dem p} 1560-talet efter tyskt m|nster. - Sant vad galler greve och baron. Hertig, daremot, har anvants sedan slutet pa 1200-talet... 'Minnens I Hatunaleken'. Vicomte {r en fransk titel, men den finns i Danmark ocks}. Ursprungligen {r det en "Vicegreve", det vill s{ga sn{ppet under en ordinarie greve, "comte". Landgreve {r en tyskt titel, jag skall kolla om den {r h|gre eller l{gre {n en vanlig greve. - Jag misstanker att lantgreve eg. ar hogre, men det ar anda en tuffare titel... Arvfurste vore v{l n{rmast en kronprins? Prins kommer av det latinska "principe" som betyder f|rst, som {r roten till ordet furste. "Prins" och "furste" {r allts} ekvivalenta former. Det finns ett brev d{r Gustav den Vasa tituleras "allernaadigste herre Konung, prins och f|rste av Sverige" eller n}got s}dant. - Har har vi egentligen ett storre problem. Jag har ingen bra losning. H{r f|ljer utdrag ur H{roldshandboken: Corpora, appendix C: Titles of Rank The titles listed here are considered standard, and may be used by those who have earned or been granted the appropriate rank or award within the society. ... Viscount/Viscountess: Persons who have ruled over a principality. ... --- Local Heralds Handbook for the Kingdom of Drachenwald appendix 4: Alternate Titles ... Germanic Languages SCA English German Dutch Viscount Viscount Landgraf Burggraaf Viscountess Viscountess Landgr{fin Burggravin Danish Norwegian Swedish Icelandic -- -- Vicomte -- -- -- Vicomtessa -- Ska man tro detta vore Lantgreve eller Borggreve l{mpliga ers{ttningar, men vis av erfarenheten vill jag nog kontrollera i prim{ra k{llor innan jag s{tter mitt namn under n}gra {ndringar. - Misstanker att du har ratt... Vi h|res, Frithiof MVH /Harabanar Hugilaikr eller Hartmann Rogge From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 13:12:32 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA24337 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:12:29 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id NAA06555; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:12:17 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403021212.NAA06555@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: titlar p? svenska To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 13:12:12 MET DST Cc: Frithiof@kemist.kemi.uu.se (Sven Nor`n (Frithiof Sigvardsson Sk{gge)), mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net (Jan Frelin (Harabanar Hugilaikir)) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Hej. Peder h{r. Frithiof skriver ang}ende svensk titel p} Vicomte/ess: > Vicomte {r en fransk titel, men den finns i Danmark ocks}. Ursprungligen > {r det en "Vicegreve", det vill s{ga sn{ppet under en ordinarie greve, > "comte". Landgreve {r en tyskt titel, jag skall kolla om den {r h|gre > eller l{gre {n en vanlig greve. Och Rabbe/Rogge kommenterar: > - Jag misstanker att lantgreve eg. ar hogre, men det ar anda en tuffare > titel... Jag kommer ih}g en s|ndageftermiddag tillsammans med Vicomte Richard Gilcrest. Tillsammans med fru Sophia bes|kte jag honom, och han insiterade p} att bjuda oss p} middag p} ett n{rliggande v{rdshus. Det var helt tydligt att han k{nde v{rden och hans familj, och han visade stolt p} menyn att han f}tt en matr{tt uppkallad efter sig. D{r stod: Sandwich Landgraf Rickard Richard p}stod att 'landgraf' var en slags greve med en f|rl{ning l}ngt fr}n hovet ("ute p} landet", och d{rf|r inte f|rv{ntades n{rvara d{r annat {n vid h|gtidligare tillf{llen. M|jligen var ocks} f|rpliktelserna mot kungen n}got mindre f|r en 'landgraf' j{mf|rt med en 'graf'. S} l}ngt Richard. Frithiof forts{tter vidare (efter citat av LHH): > Ska man tro detta vore Lantgreve eller Borggreve l{mpliga ers{ttningar, > men vis av erfarenheten vill jag nog kontrollera i prim{ra k{llor > innan jag s{tter mitt namn under n}gra {ndringar. M}ste erk{nna att 'Borggreve' l}ter tufft. Det {r en titel jag sj{lv inte skulle ha n}got emot att b{ra... :-) /Peder From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 13:48:53 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA26228 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:48:49 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:46:53 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA13365; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:48:29 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403021248.AA13365@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: titlar p? svenska To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 13:48:28 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Frithiof > Harabanar Morgan > N}got f|rslag till alternativ medeltida titel f|r vicomter och > vicomtessor har jag inte s} h{r p} rak arm. > Nu {r ju inte baron, greve eller hertig mer {n n{tt och j{mt > ====== > "period" heller, det var Erik XIV som inf|rde dem p} 1560-talet > efter tyskt m|nster. Baron aer vael egentligen en generisk term foer den "Titulerade Adeln". Dessutom anser jag att man boer baera en form av sin titel som spraakmaessigt passar med ens persona.... ;) > - Sant vad galler greve och baron. Hertig, daremot, har anvants sedan > slutet pa 1200-talet... 'Minnens I Hatunaleken'. > > Vicomte {r en fransk titel, men den finns i Danmark ocks}. > Ursprungligen {r det en "Vicegreve", det vill s{ga sn{ppet under > en ordinarie greve, "comte". Landgreve {r en tyskt titel, jag > skall kolla om den {r h|gre eller l{gre {n en vanlig greve. Har det foerekommit naagra "Viscomter" i Sverige, och i saa fall hur har de titulerats ? Om inte, vad aer vaar naermaste Svenska motsvarig- het ? Vi (Morgan och Alienor) har aeven diskuterat med vaart Nordmarkska Baronpar hur man skall titulera de som faar ett sk. "Court Barony"....vi konstaterade att det svenska ordet "Friherre", kunde passa bra. Vore int- ressant med lite "feed-back".. ;) > - Jag misstanker att lantgreve eg. ar hogre, men det ar anda en tuffare > titel... > > Arvfurste vore v{l n{rmast en kronprins? Prins kommer av det latinska > "principe" som betyder f|rst, som {r roten till ordet furste. > "Prins" och "furste" {r allts} ekvivalenta former. Det finns ett brev > d{r Gustav den Vasa tituleras "allernaadigste herre Konung, prins och > f|rste av Sverige" eller n}got s}dant. Arvfurste, kan om jag inte missminner mig anvaendas aeven om andra aen Kronprinsar...faar kolla upp det...! Aer Prins verkligen == Furste ? Man kan vara Furste utan att vara Prins. En Hertig aer ocksaa en Furste...aatminstone i sitt Hertigdoeme, eller gaeller det enbart foer sk Kungariken...? Hertigen av Normandie, t.ex var en maektig Furste. > - Har har vi egentligen ett storre problem. Jag har ingen bra losning. > > H{r f|ljer utdrag ur H{roldshandboken: [deleted] > Ska man tro detta vore Lantgreve eller Borggreve l{mpliga ers{ttningar, > men vis av erfarenheten vill jag nog kontrollera i prim{ra k{llor > innan jag s{tter mitt namn under n}gra {ndringar. Om detta skall anvaendas som ersaettning foer Viscomte, aer det inte viss risk foer begreppsfoervirring. Man kan alltsaa vara baade Lant- greve och greve ? Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 15:41:59 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA29627 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:41:54 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA04121; Wed, 2 Mar 94 14:41:17 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:31:42 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:42:03 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:39:47 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:37:58 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:47:08 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:47:08 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002314000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 084715020394 Message-Id: <084715020394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: titlar p? svenska Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe har igen om titlar, svar till M&A: Har det foerekommit naagra "Viscomter" i Sverige, och i saa fall hur har de titulerats ? Om inte, vad aer vaar naermaste Svenska motsvarig- het ? Vi (Morgan och Alienor) har aeven diskuterat med vaart Nordmarkska Baronpar hur man skall titulera de som faar ett sk. "Court Barony"....vi konstaterade att det svenska ordet "Friherre", kunde passa bra. Vore int- ressant med lite "feed-back".. ;) - Battre an nat annat jag kan komma pa. Tror att den tillhor Erik XIV- perioden (Usch ;-) > - Jag misstanker att lantgreve eg. ar hogre, men det ar anda en tuffare > titel... > > Arvfurste vore v{l n{rmast en kronprins? Prins kommer av det latinska > "principe" som betyder f|rst, som {r roten till ordet furste. > "Prins" och "furste" {r allts} ekvivalenta former. Det finns ett brev > d{r Gustav den Vasa tituleras "allernaadigste herre Konung, prins och > f|rste av Sverige" eller n}got s}dant. Arvfurste, kan om jag inte missminner mig anvaendas aeven om andra aen Kronprinsar...faar kolla upp det...! - Stammer nog. Ar ratt osaker. Aer Prins verkligen == Furste ? Man kan vara Furste utan att vara Prins. En Hertig aer ocksaa en Furste...aatminstone i sitt Hertigdoeme, eller gaeller det enbart foer sk Kungariken...? Hertigen av Normandie, t.ex var en maektig Furste. - Pa engelska ar det samma ord. Pa tyska, varifran vart sprakbruk stammar, finns det bade 'furst' och 'prinz', med vissa betydelseglidningar. Liksom baron kan furste anvandas bade allmant (som ovan) och som titel. Annorlunda uttryckt: det ar skillnad pa en furste och en Furste liksom pa en baron och en Baron. Jag har daremot aldrig hort Macchiavellis bok kallas nagot annat an 'Fursten'. > H{r f|ljer utdrag ur H{roldshandboken: [deleted] > Ska man tro detta vore Lantgreve eller Borggreve l{mpliga ers{ttningar, > men vis av erfarenheten vill jag nog kontrollera i prim{ra k{llor > innan jag s{tter mitt namn under n}gra {ndringar. Om detta skall anvaendas som ersaettning foer Viscomte, aer det inte viss risk foer begreppsfoervirring. Man kan alltsaa vara baade Lant- greve och greve ? - Liksom Viscount och Count, eller Viscomte och Comte. So? Ciao Morgan// - Rabbe From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 16:24:27 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA00522 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:24:25 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA06096 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for Nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:24:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:24:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199403021524.AA06096@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Cc: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se's message of Wed, 2 Mar 94 11:36:09 +0100 <940302.113609.39035@macpost.lu.se> Subject: Makt? Makt!!! From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO K{ra Catrin med flera. BoDs senaste g{rningar har ju v{ckt stor uppst}ndelse, listor om "impeachment" har cirkulerat och de engelskspr}kiga n{ten har fyllts till br{dden av uppr|rda reaktioner. F|r oss finns det tre m|jligheter: 1. F|lja BoDs beslut (fast protestera) oavsett vem som "vinner" den nu p}g}ende dragkampen. Betala och acceptera om s} kr{vs, men driva politik mot beslutet till dess resultat erh}lles. 2. Ensidigt g} ur SCA och bilda en egen korporation. 3. Inleda samtal med BoD om att Drachenwald borde vara en egen korporation, svepsk{l=avst}ndet, olika l{nder, osv. Just nu tycker jag vi b|r f|lja alternativ 1 medan vi avvaktar den "strid" som p}g}r i USA. Ingen vet ju vad som kommer att ske n{r BoD reagerar p} de papper om "impeachment" och liknande som nu samlas in, protestbrev osv. Alternativ 2 {r en desperat }tg{rd som jag inte tycker {r aktuell idag. Alternativ 3 kan vara ett snyggare s{tt att slingra oss ur greppet; inget jag direkt rekommenderar, men man kan ha det i bakfickan. Vad g{ller Nordmarks lag s} beslutade laggruppen vid sitt senaste m|te att f|resl}, att Nordmarks STADGAR (dvs den "mundana" och helt demokratiska f|reningsstadgan som reglerar v}ra finanser etc) ska inf|ras i Lagabalkens paragraf 4: "I Nordmark g{lla dessa lagar i nedstigande ordning: Svea Rikes Lag, Corpora and By-laws of the SCA, Governing and Policy decisions of the BoD, Kungariket Drachenwalds lag, SCA-Nordmarks stadgar, samt furstend|met Nordmarks lag." Detta betyder att stadgarna st{lls |ver lagen, vilket i praktiken ger m|jlighet f|r den demokratiskt valda styrelsen/}rsm|tet att gripa in i den medeltida leken om s} skulle beh|vas. Eventuellt kunde man reflektera |ver m|jligheten att s{tta in Nordmarks stadgar {nnu h|gre upp i hierarkin... Men allting {r just nu bara funderingar och spekulationer i ett mycket os{kert l{ge, s} l{nge vi inte vet vad slutresultatet blir av striden om "pay-to-play". William From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 16:29:23 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA00570 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:29:22 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA06175 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:28:01 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:28:01 +0100 Message-Id: <199403021528.AA06175@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net's message of Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:55:57 +0100 <575512020394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> Subject: titlar p? svenska From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Hertig g}r tillbaka p} "Herzog", anglosaxiska "Here-toga", ordet l{r betyda "h{r-tagare" allts} den som tager h{ren. P} latin heter det "dux bellorum", vilket syftar p} att de gamla germanska kungarna inte automatiskt var milit{ra |ver- bef{lhavare. N{r det blev krig uts}g man en person att f|ra bef{let |ver armen, det var h{r-tagaren. William /besserwisser, pys, pys/ From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 17:12:49 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA01101 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 17:12:37 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:10:43 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA19045; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 17:12:23 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403021612.AA19045@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Where is ELffin ? To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 17:12:23 MET Cc: 100040.134@compuserve.com (Mary Hickey) Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO ANYONE KNOWS WHERE ELFFIN IS ?? Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 17:30:32 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA01339 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 17:30:31 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA28465; Wed, 2 Mar 94 17:32:19 +0100 Subject: Ja, just makt!!! To: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Wed, 2 Mar 94 17:31:43 +0100 Message-Id: <940302.173143.39336@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO Hall}, alla Prath|gare! Catrin h{r igen. William skriver: >BoDs senaste g{rningar har ju v{ckt stor uppst}ndelse, listor om >"impeachment" har cirkulerat och de engelskspr}kiga n{ten har >fyllts till br{dden av uppr|rda reaktioner. Tacka 17 f|r det! >F|r oss finns det tre m|jligheter: > >1. F|lja BoDs beslut (fast protestera) oavsett vem som "vinner" den > nu p}g}ende dragkampen. Betala och acceptera om s} kr{vs, men > driva politik mot beslutet till dess resultat erh}lles. > >2. Ensidigt g} ur SCA och bilda en egen korporation. > >3. Inleda samtal med BoD om att Drachenwald borde vara en egen > korporation, svepsk{l=avst}ndet, olika l{nder, osv. > >Just nu tycker jag vi b|r f|lja alternativ 1 medan vi avvaktar den >"strid" som p}g}r i USA. Ingen vet ju vad som kommer att ske n{r >BoD reagerar p} de papper om "impeachment" och liknande som nu >samlas in, protestbrev osv. Det {r just min po{ng, det {r ingen "strid som p}g}r i USA". ]tminstone vi som {r betalande SCA medlemmar {r ju faktiskt en del av b}de problemet och l|sningen, oavsett om vi bor i USA, Australien eller Sverige. Det handlar i allra h|gsta grad om var sk}pet ska st} i _v}r_ f|rening och det finns inga "dom" som fixar till det }t oss s} att det blir r{tt. _Det_ _{r_ _vi_ _som_ _{r_ _"dom"_!!! Inse det! Det {r _oss_ BoD k|r |ver, inte bara n}got anonymt g{ng amerikaner som sj{lva f}r se till att reda ut det h{r. Vi som tycker beslutet {r fel, fattat p} felaktigt s{tt och p} felaktiga grunder, m}ste tala om det! B}de som enskilda medlemmar, som lokalgrupper och helst {ven som baroni, om nu folk tycker det. S{tta sig ner och avvakta kan man bara g|ra _efter_ att man har gjort sitt yttersta f|r att p}verka p} fredlig och laglig v{g. Och vi ska definitivt _inte_ betala och acceptera. N{r beslutet v{l har b|rjat oms{ttas i praktiken, {r det f|r sent att driva politik mot det. >Alternativ 2 {r en desperat }tg{rd som jag inte tycker {r aktuell >idag. Inst{mmer. >Alternativ 3 kan vara ett snyggare s{tt att slingra oss ur greppet; >inget jag direkt rekommenderar, men man kan ha det i bakfickan. Jo, det {r mer {n s}, och sk{len {r inte bara svepsk{l. Det skulle kunna vara en f|rebild f|r att reorganisera hela SCA och g|ra det till en verkligt internationell f|rening. Decentralisering {r den enda framkomliga v{gen. Jag tror att de som styr SCA inte har t{nkt p}, eller har struntat i, vilka skillnader det faktiskt finns mellan olika l{nders lagstiftning och f|reningskultur. - I praktiken {r Nordmark ju redan halvv{gs d{r, eftersom SCA Inc. pga den svenska lagstiftningen inte kan r}da |ver v}ra finanser. >Vad g{ller Nordmarks lag s} beslutade laggruppen vid sitt senaste >m|te att f|resl}, att Nordmarks STADGAR (dvs den "mundana" och helt >demokratiska f|reningsstadgan som reglerar v}ra finanser etc) ska >inf|ras i Lagabalkens paragraf 4: > >"I Nordmark g{lla dessa lagar i nedstigande ordning: Svea Rikes Lag, >Corpora and By-laws of the SCA, Governing and Policy decisions of >the BoD, Kungariket Drachenwalds lag, SCA-Nordmarks stadgar, samt >furstend|met Nordmarks lag." > >Detta betyder att stadgarna st{lls |ver lagen, vilket i praktiken >ger m|jlighet f|r den demokratiskt valda styrelsen/}rsm|tet att >gripa in i den medeltida leken om s} skulle beh|vas. > >Eventuellt kunde man reflektera |ver m|jligheten att s{tta in >Nordmarks stadgar {nnu h|gre upp i hierarkin... Ett steg i r{tt riktning, men det {r lika v{sentligt att vara p} det klara |ver vad den svenska lagen s{ger om SCA Inc:s juridiska st{llning h{r. Har Laggruppen f|rs|kt reda ut det? Det borde tydligt framg} i f|rarbetena till Nordmarks lag eller i (en kommentar till) SCA-Nordmarks stadgar, i alla fall n}gonstans d{r det finns officiellt nerskrivet och allm{nt tillg{ngligt. >Men allting {r just nu bara funderingar och spekulationer i ett >mycket os{kert l{ge, s} l{nge vi inte vet vad slutresultatet >blir av striden om "pay-to-play". Liksom i ett schackspel m}ste man spekulera fram}t f|r att kunna bem|ta motspelarens drag utan att r}ka i panik. Dessutom beror slutresultatet av striden delvis p} oss: s} l{nge BoD bara har f}tt sammanlagt ca 40 protestbrev, s} kan de intala sig sj{lva att folk i stort sett {r ganska n|jda. Och det {r vi v{l inte, eller? Salvete. Catrin Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Wed Mar 2 18:34:02 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA02143 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 18:34:00 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA08079 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for Nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 2 Mar 1994 18:33:51 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 18:33:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199403021733.AA08079@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Cc: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se's message of Wed, 2 Mar 94 17:31:43 +0100 <940302.173143.39336@macpost.lu.se> Subject: Ja, just makt!!! From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William h{lsar Catrin med flera. Jag h}ller helt med om att SCA beh|ver regorganiseras, och f|r min del vill jag se Cariadoc's f|rslag f|rverkligas: SCA delas i ett antal korporationer av kungad|mes-format. Inst{mmer ocks} i att vi i Nordmark m}ste skriva och protestera. Men sist och slutligen {r det i USA striden st}r, s{rskilt om det blir juridiska palavrer. William From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 07:12:02 1994 Received: from goliath.unda.fi (goliath.unda.fi [193.64.23.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA10617 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 07:11:54 +0100 Received: from unda.fi (titan.unda.fi) by goliath.unda.fi (5.65c/93.6.3-MAI) id AA25351; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:10:13 +0200 Received: from nipsu.unda.fi by unda.fi (4.1/MAI-94.2.12) id AA08930; Thu, 3 Mar 94 08:08:50 +0200 Received: by nipsu.unda.fi (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA27399; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:10:22 --200 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:10:22 --200 From: jkaksonen@unda.fi (Jokke Kaksonen) Message-Id: <9403030610.AA27399@nipsu.unda.fi> To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: Where is ELffin ? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 123 Status: RO I think he's here in Aarnimetsae. At least he's supposed to be in the event that we are having this weekend. Celestinus From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 14:12:21 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA14589 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:12:16 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA05561 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:13:00 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:12:59 +0100 Message-Id: <199403031313.AA05561@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Cc: FRITHIOF@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE Subject: titulatur Status: RO Hej alla det{r Frithiof. V{rst vilken fart det blev p} prath|gen efter mitt brev om titlar, kul! De enda adelstitlar som anv{nts i Sverige {r Friherre, Greve, och Hertig. Hertig {r som Harabanar p}pekade en gammal titel, som mest verkar ha anv{nts f|r medlemmar av den kungliga familjen. Friherre och Greve inf|rdes av Erik XIV ({.k.s. "Kirre ding-ding"). Baron har inte varit en allm{nt anv{nd titel i Sverige, men den har anv{nts som tilltal f|r friherrar. Friherrinnor skall dock alltid tilltalas "Friherrinnan". (J{mf|r engelska Earls and Duchesses.) Det finns dock ett baroni kvar i Sverige; det Adelsv{rdska. Detta inneb{r att den som {ger egendomen, som omfattar cirka 30.000 hektar mark i \sterg|tland och Sm}land, ocks} {ger titeln "Baron Adelsv{rd". Baron har anv{nts om land{gande adel, s} titeln "Court Baron" {r lika galen som att f} sk|ldebrev flera g}nger om. TSCA. Herr Peder f|reslog p} min fr}ga att skilja p} hovbaroner och besuttna baroner, det vill s{ga "court-" och "Landed Barons". Frithiof From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 14:26:32 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA15137 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:26:29 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:24:33 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA13953; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:26:09 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403031326.AA13953@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: titulatur To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:26:08 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <199403031313.AA05561@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE>; from "frithiof@oorgan.dnet" at Mar 3, 94 2:12 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Hej alla det{r Frithiof. Morgan haer : > V{rst vilken fart det blev p} prath|gen efter mitt brev om titlar, kul! > De enda adelstitlar som anv{nts i Sverige {r Friherre, Greve, och Hertig. > Hertig {r som Harabanar p}pekade en gammal titel, som mest verkar ha > anv{nts f|r medlemmar av den kungliga familjen. Friherre och Greve > inf|rdes av Erik XIV ({.k.s. "Kirre ding-ding"). Baron har inte varit > en allm{nt anv{nd titel i Sverige, men den har anv{nts som tilltal > f|r friherrar. Friherrinnor skall dock alltid tilltalas "Friherrinnan". > (J{mf|r engelska Earls and Duchesses.) Aer Friherre/Friherrinna att jaemfoera med Earl/Duchess ? Dessa aer ju av naagot olika "Rang". > Baron har anv{nts om land{gande adel, s} titeln "Court Baron" {r lika > galen som att f} sk|ldebrev flera g}nger om. TSCA. Vi haaller med.. ;) En gaang Adlad alltid Adlad..! >Herr Peder f|reslog p} min fr}ga att skilja p} hovbaroner och besuttna baroner, >det vill s{ga "court-" och "Landed Barons". Saa vaar ide att anvaenda Friherre foer "Court Baron" aer inte saa bra..eller...? Vad foereslog Peder egentligen ?... ;) Ciao Morgan// ?-at-Large..;) -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 14:40:25 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA15496 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:40:23 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA12647; Thu, 3 Mar 94 13:39:47 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:30:08 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:40:32 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:38:11 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:36:41 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:46:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:46:37 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002409000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 374614030394 Message-Id: <374614030394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: titulatur Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan Hej alla det{r Frithiof. - Rabbe, igen. Det finns dock ett baroni kvar i Sverige; det Adelsv{rdska. Detta inneb{r att den som {ger egendomen, som omfattar cirka 30.000 hektar mark i \sterg|tland och Sm}land, ocks} {ger titeln "Baron Adelsv{rd". Baron har anv{nts om land{gande adel, s} titeln "Court Baron" {r lika galen som att f} sk|ldebrev flera g}nger om. TSCA. Herr Peder f|reslog p} min fr}ga att skilja p} hovbaroner och besuttna baroner, det vill s{ga "court-" och "Landed Barons". - Da verkar ju friherre passa battre, faktiskt. Sverige dessutom grevar utan grevskap, vilket bara betyder att Kirre var lika dum som SCA... Frithiof - Rabbe From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 14:52:15 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA15615 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:52:02 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:50:09 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18353; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:51:46 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403031351.AA18353@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: titulatur To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:51:45 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <374614030394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS>; from "mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net" at Mar 3, 94 2:46 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Morgan haer : > Hej alla det{r Frithiof. > > - Rabbe, igen. > > Det finns dock ett baroni kvar i Sverige; det Adelsv{rdska. Detta inneb{r > att den som {ger egendomen, som omfattar cirka 30.000 hektar mark i > \sterg|tland och Sm}land, ocks} {ger titeln "Baron Adelsv{rd". > > Baron har anv{nts om land{gande adel, s} titeln "Court Baron" {r lika > galen som att f} sk|ldebrev flera g}nger om. TSCA. > > Herr Peder f|reslog p} min fr}ga att skilja p} hovbaroner och besuttna > baroner, > det vill s{ga "court-" och "Landed Barons". > > - Da verkar ju friherre passa battre, faktiskt. Sverige dessutom grevar > utan grevskap, vilket bara betyder att Kirre var lika dum som SCA... Men vaenta lite...Kirre (aka Erik XIV) aer ju "period". Om han in- foerde och anvaende titulaturen saa aer den ju tidsenlig. Daa aer ju inte SCA helt ute och reser.....eller hur ?.... ;) ;) ;) > Frithiof > > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:01:50 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA15808 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:01:49 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id PAA29175 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:01:43 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403031401.PAA29175@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: titulatur To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:01:34 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Hola. Estoy Pedro. Morgan undrar: > Saa vaar ide att anvaenda Friherre foer "Court Baron" aer inte saa > bra..eller...? Vad foereslog Peder egentligen ?... ;) Jag f|reslog egentligen ingenting. Jag bara refererade till en erfarenhet. ]ss} tyckte jag att Landgreve och Borggreve l{t maffigt. Men Friherre {r ocks} bra, tycker jag. /Peder From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:11:25 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA15915 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:11:20 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA12879; Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:10:34 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:00:58 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:11:23 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:09:02 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:07:51 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:17:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:17:47 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002422000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 471715030394 Message-Id: <471715030394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: titulatur Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan Morgan haer : - Rabbe, igen igen... Men vaenta lite...Kirre (aka Erik XIV) aer ju "period". Om han in- foerde och anvaende titulaturen saa aer den ju tidsenlig. Daa aer ju inte SCA helt ute och reser.....eller hur ?.... ;) ;) ;) - Det vet ju alla att fortjanade artsoppan. Det tycker jag kungar ska se upp med, forexten... > Frithiof > > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// - Rabbe From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:17:51 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA15983 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:17:41 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:15:42 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18854; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:17:16 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403031417.AA18854@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: titulatur To: leeu@celsiustech.se (Leif Euren) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:17:15 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <199403031401.PAA29175@world.celsiustech.se>; from "Leif Euren" at Mar 3, 94 3:01 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > Hola. Estoy Pedro. > > Morgan undrar: > > Saa vaar ide att anvaenda Friherre foer "Court Baron" aer inte saa > > bra..eller...? Vad foereslog Peder egentligen ?... ;) > > Jag f|reslog egentligen ingenting. Jag bara refererade till en > erfarenhet. ]ss} tyckte jag att Landgreve och Borggreve l{t maffigt. > Men Friherre {r ocks} bra, tycker jag. > > /Peder Aaaah...haaller med om att Landgreve och Borggreve laater OK. Fraagan aer vad det motsvarar..hm....Friherre aer nog naermast Baron "rangmaessigt"... Borggreve skulle kunna vara ett alternativ till Vicomte, men om Vicomte aer det ord som anvaents i Sverige saa borde det vael vara alright. Jag menar laaneord har vi massor av, och vi anvaender dem dag- ligen saa det saa....!!! ;) ;) Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:19:11 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA16001 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:19:08 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:17:19 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18913; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:18:55 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403031418.AA18913@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: titulatur To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:18:54 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <471715030394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS>; from "mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net" at Mar 3, 94 3:17 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Morgan haer : > > - Rabbe, igen igen... > > > Men vaenta lite...Kirre (aka Erik XIV) aer ju "period". Om han in- > foerde och anvaende titulaturen saa aer den ju tidsenlig. Daa aer ju inte > SCA helt ute och reser.....eller hur ?.... ;) ;) ;) > > - Det vet ju alla att fortjanade artsoppan. Det tycker jag kungar ska se > upp med, forexten... Tack foer den naagot foersenade varningen...aat aertsoppa till lunchen ! Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:31:19 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA16110 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:31:18 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA05672 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:29:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:29:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199403031429.AA05672@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: titlarna Status: RO Hej Morgan, Rabbe, Peder, m.fl., det {r Frithiof igen! ang. Earls och Friherrar: Vad jag syftade p} var att en engelsk Earl skall tilltalas "Duke", och en svensk Friherre skall tilltalas "Baron". Deras respektive rang l{mnade jag helt d{rh{n. ang. Grevskap: N{r Kirre inf|rde adelstitlar i Sverige s} best{mde han att vissa av Sveriges landskap skulle vara Grevskap, och vissa Hertigd|men. Senare har man visat alla landskapsvapen med hertigkronor, och medlemmarna av kungahuset b{r ju ocks} titlarna Hertig av (n}nting) och Hertiginna av (n}got annat). I dag finns det bara ett baroni kvar, men det har nog funnits flera f|rr. ang. Herr Peder: F|r halvannan m}nad sedan skickade jag ut ett allm{nt anrop och fr}gade efter l{mplig |vers{ttning av "Landed Baron". Det enda svar jag fick var fr}n Herr Peder som f|reslog Besutten Baron. "Court Baron" blir ju Hovbaron. ang. [rtsoppa: det {r Torsdag i dag. ang. Frithiof: Hej d}! From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 15:51:11 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA16270 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:51:08 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:49:19 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA19420; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:50:57 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403031450.AA19420@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: titlarna To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:50:56 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <199403031429.AA05672@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE>; from "frithiof@oorgan.dnet" at Mar 3, 94 3:29 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > Hej Morgan, Rabbe, Peder, m.fl., det {r Frithiof igen! > > ang. Earls och Friherrar: > Vad jag syftade p} var att en engelsk Earl skall tilltalas "Duke", > och en svensk Friherre skall tilltalas "Baron". Deras respektive > rang l{mnade jag helt d{rh{n. Hm...varfoer skulle en Earl tilltalas "Duke"...? Det laater lite underligt. > ang. Grevskap: > N{r Kirre inf|rde adelstitlar i Sverige s} best{mde han att vissa av > Sveriges landskap skulle vara Grevskap, och vissa Hertigd|men. > Senare har man visat alla landskapsvapen med hertigkronor, och > medlemmarna av kungahuset b{r ju ocks} titlarna Hertig av (n}nting) > och Hertiginna av (n}got annat). Men det aer fortfarande tidsenligt...vad tror ni skulle haenda om Drachenwalds Kung och Drottning ploetsligt borjade dela ut/foerlaena Hertigdoemen och Grevskap...? ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) > ang. Herr Peder: > F|r halvannan m}nad sedan skickade jag ut ett allm{nt anrop och fr}gade > efter l{mplig |vers{ttning av "Landed Baron". Det enda svar jag fick var fr}n > Herr Peder som f|reslog Besutten Baron. "Court Baron" blir ju Hovbaron. Det var lustigt, hade jag sett det saa hade jag omedelbart svarat... ....hm...FRIHERRE ! > ang. [rtsoppa: > det {r Torsdag i dag. Vi vet, och har ocksaa foertaert soppan...he, he... Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 17:58:55 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA19002 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:58:53 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA08235 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for Nordmark mailing list ); Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:56:55 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:32:12 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: titlar p? svenska To: Morgan Broman Cc: Nordmark mailing list In-Reply-To: <9403021248.AA13365@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO UlfR h{r: Jag tror h{r att n}gra citat ur senaste numret av "Arte et Marte"=20 (1993; sid 11. Arte et Marte {r Riddarhusets }rliga tidskrift) kan vara av= =20 intresse. "N{r kung Erik (XIV) nu f|rklarade sig vilja }teruppliva de gamla=20 jarlerna i riket under namnet av grevar, s} {r kopplingen tydlig till=20 engelskans *earl*, som etymologiskt {r n{rbesl{ktat med jarl." "I de germaska urspr}ken finner man forntyskans *gravo* och=20 fornengelskans *gerefa*. Ett m|jlig etymologiskt sammanhang finns med ett= =20 latinskt ord som ursprungligen betesknade en skrivare, som med tiden blev= =20 styresman f|r en viss del av riket. H{r faller tanken p} den anglosaxiska= =20 titeln *scire-gerefa*, den engelska kungens representant och styresman i=20 de shires i vilka riket var indelat. Scire-gerefa utveckladews till det=20 begrepp som vi k{nner till fr}n legenden om Robin Hood och den=20 ondskefulla *sheriffen* av Nottingham." "Speciellt betydelsefulla blev de comes vilkas grevskap l}g i omr}den som= =20 gr{nsade till barbarfolk, s.k. *mark*, gr{nsland ... Dessa ur=20 f|rsvarsynpunkt viktiga comes gavs namnet *markgrevar*, vilket senare gav= =20 upphov till den kontinentala adelstiteln *markis*, som p} rangskalan=20 kommit att placeras mellan hertig och greve." "[ven den svenska b|rdstiteln friherre |vertogs direkt fr}n tyskan. Det=20 latinska ordet f|r baron- eller friherre-v{rdigheten {r *baro*, som i sin= =20 ursprungliga betydelse knappast har n}gon vacker klang, n{mnligen=20 enfaldig m{nniska, t|lp." "Att titelsn baron (i obest{md form) kommit att anv{ndas vid direkt=20 tilltal beror sannolikt p} titelns l{tthanterlighet i j{mf|relse med=20 friherre. Den motsvarande formen baronessa f|rekommer ej i Sverige." Det st}r lite till som jag inte orkar skriva av just nu, men om n}gon {r=20 intresserad kan jag scanna in den och }terge den i sin helhet. Eller=20 skicka kopior (a 3,10kr st). Viktigt; friherre och baron {r samma sak i svenskan. Den av{nds *inte* p}= =20 all adel (det svenska systemet i sin nuvarande form har tre klasser; adel= =20 - friherre - greve). /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Thu Mar 3 20:25:57 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA21410 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:25:56 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA10002 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:25:34 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:21:21 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: titlarna To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <199403031429.AA05672@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO Frithiof skrev; >Vad jag syftade p} var att en engelsk Earl skall tilltalas "Duke", Enligt "Debretts Etiquette & Modern Manners" skall en Earl tilltalas som=20 "Lord so and so". En Duke skall d{remot tilltalas som "Duke". /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 08:55:59 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA00476 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:55:58 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA06170 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:01:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:01:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199403040801.AA06170@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: Re: titlarna Status: RO >Frithiof skrev; >>Vad jag syftade p} var att en engelsk Earl skall tilltalas "Duke", >Enligt "Debretts Etiquette & Modern Manners" skall en Earl tilltalas som=20 >"Lord so and so". En Duke skall d{remot tilltalas som "Duke". >/UlfR Helt riktigt. Jag hade blandat ihop de Engelska titlarna. Vad jag syftade till var den Engelska vanan att kalla utl{ndska grevar f|r "Count" och inhemska f|r "Earl", fast{n inhemska grevinnor kallas "Countess". Hoppas att f|rvirringen i och med detta {r total. Frithiof From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 09:02:53 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA00540 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:02:51 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA06174 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:05:43 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:05:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199403040805.AA06174@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Titulatur Status: RO Hej, det {r Frithiof som }terkommer (med en druckens envishet). F|rst vill jag tacka Herr Ulfr f|r hans inl{gg, som klargjorde sambanden mycket b{ttre {n jag hade kunnat g|ra det. Secundo: Jag slog upp "Landgreve" i Bra B|ckers Lexikon, och d{r kan man l{sa f|ljande: Landgreve (ty. Landgraf) Tysk adelstitel f|r en greve som lydde direkt under den Tysk-Romerska kejsaren, vilket gav s{rskilda privilegier. (citatet ej ordagrant, jag tog inte med uppslagsverket till jobbet). Om Burggreve st}r f|ljande: Fr}n tyska Burggraf. Under 1600-talet titel f|r den h|gste milit{re och r{ttsliga styresmannen i G|teborg och Malm|. Hmmmmmm.... jag tror nog att l}neordet Vicomte f}r duga, }tminstone vad mig anbelangar... Frithiof From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 09:30:37 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA00981 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:30:36 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA06196 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:30:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:30:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199403040830.AA06196@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: BoD och lagen Status: RO Jag noterar att diskussionen om hur man l{mpligen titulerar en Viscount tydligen {r intressantare {n BoDs senaste p}hitt. Det lagf|rslag vi sett nyligen avviker p} flera punkter fr}n SCAs normala lagar, s} mycket att det v{l {r tveksamt om BoD kommer att sl{ppa igenom det. Varf|r d} inte utforma det s} att SCA-Nordmark kan accepteras som en Svensk f|rening? Som det nu {r, s} m}ste vi ju ha en "skuggf|rening" f|r att kunna |ppna postgirokonton bland annat. Det borde g} att sammanf|ra de tv} f|reningarna till en, och slippa begreppsf|rvirring och kr}ngel. Hur {r det f|rresten, kan tillexempel Drachenwald g|ra anspr}k p} de pengar som finns p} ett postgirokonto registrerat p} SKA-Nordmark? Om alla betalningar g|rs till och fr}n SKAs konton, {r de d} giltiga inom SCA? Jag t{nker d} p} evenemangsavgifter, prenumerationer, o.dyl. Ska vi nu chocka BoD med ett radikalt lagf|rslag, varf|r d} inte ta steget fullt ut? Om de skriker och sl}r ifr}n sig kan vi ju "backa" till det nuvarande f|rslaget, och l}ta dem tro att de har vunnit! Frithiof, brandfacklet{ndare From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 09:54:11 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA01403 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:54:10 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA20862; Fri, 4 Mar 94 09:56:00 +0100 Subject: Re: BoD och lagen To: Sven.Noren@kemi.UU.SE Cc: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 09:55:23 +0100 Message-Id: <940304.095523.39928@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO Catrin h{r, s}klart. Frithiof skriver: >Jag noterar att diskussionen om hur man l{mpligen titulerar en Viscount >tydligen {r intressantare {n BoDs senaste p}hitt. Frithiof, du leve, hurra, hurra, hurra! [ntligen n}gon som reagerar och tycker att prioriteringen inte {r _helt_ sj{lvklar. (Fast titeldebatten {r l{rorik...) >Det lagf|rslag ... ... ... slippa begreppsf|rvirring och kr}ngel. L}ter _mycket_ intressant. Vad s{ger Laggruppen? >Hur {r det f|rresten, kan tillexempel Drachenwald g|ra anspr}k p} de >pengar som finns p} ett postgirokonto registrerat p} SKA-Nordmark? >... ... ... Ungef{r vad jag {r ute efter med fr}gan hur Nordmark juridiskt sett f|rh}ller sig till resten av SCA. Ska vi p} n}got s{tt reagera p} BoD:s utspel s} borde vi vara medvetna om var vi st}r och vad f|ljderna kan bli. >Ska vi nu chocka BoD med ett radikalt lagf|rslag, varf|r d} inte ta >steget fullt ut? ... ... ... Ja. Argumentet att en svensk ideell f|rening m}ste vara demokratisk f|r att vara laglig kan nog byggas ut att r{cka ganska l}ngt. >Frithiof, brandfacklet{ndare Catrin, dito. (Och vi ses p} Tinget!) Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 10:57:19 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA02140 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:57:14 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:55:22 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA29309; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:57:05 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403040957.AA29309@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Nordmark vs Vaerlden..;) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 10:57:04 MET Cc: mabr%sweden.hp.com@hplb.hpl.hp.com Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO 940304 Kista, Sverige SCA kan inte direkt kraeva vaara pengar som sitter paa ett konto i SKA/Nordmarks namn. Detta eftersom det staar i SKA/Nordmarks stadgar att man aer en foerening som stoeder SCA's verksamhet. Det staar ingenstans att vi aer en del av SCA ! Ett tag var tanken att vi skulle aendra stadgarna till detta, men efter de senaste maanadernas haendelser har all saadana planer lagts paa is..;) ! Mina egna tankar om SCA's framtid i Europa aer ganska enkla...;) Vi faar vael se hur det gaar...! Men det finns en hel del foerdelar med den nuvarande strukturen, naagot jag ej tidigare insett. * Det aer en mindre grupp, och daerfoer taemligen laett att samla. * Den aegnar sig enbart aat den mundana delen av foereningslivet. * Den har representation aeven fraan den aaterskapande verksamheten, dvs Drotsen och Skattmaestaren. * Den laater aembetsmaennen aegna sig aat det de skall, dvs den aater- skapande delen av verksamheten. Fraagor, funderingar, tankar etc...skriv... ;) MvH Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 11:37:42 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA02578 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:37:40 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA00930 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:37:34 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:37:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199403041037.AA00930@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se Cc: frithiof@oorgan.dnet, nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Par Leijonhufvud k1h's message of Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:21:21 +0200 (METDST) Subject: titlarna From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Min erfarenhet {r att Earl-ar kallas Lord, hertigar Duke. Plus att tilltalsformen {r "your grace" f|r en hertig. N}gon skrev att earlens fru kallas "duchess" -- dokumentation??? William From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 11:53:29 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA03042 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:53:28 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA01140 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:53:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:53:22 +0100 Message-Id: <199403041053.AA01140@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: frithiof@kemist.kemi.uu.se Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se, vader@csd.uu.se In-Reply-To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet's message of Fri, 4 Mar 1994 09:30:34 +0100 <199403040830.AA06196@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> Subject: BoD och lagen From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William h{r. Det har l{nge varit t{nkt att skuggf|reningen ska f|rsvinna. Prenumeration p} Sparren ska inte ge medlemskap i n}nting, utan det ska finnas en enda f|rening: SCA-Nordmark. Medlem i den {r man om man {r medlem i SCA och bosatt i Sverige. SCA-Nordmark ska styras med en demokratisk stadga. SCA-Nordmarks huvudsakliga verksamhet {r att bedriva SCA- verksamhet i form av furstend|met Nordmark. Dettas interna funktioner regleras av Nordmarks lag. Ungef{r s} var det t{nkt. Det finns n}gra problem med det. Viktigast {r att f|reningen v{ljer sin styrelse och sina {mbetsm{n demokratiskt, medan furstend|met har en feodal procedur f|r tills{ttning av {mbetsm{n. Det betyder att vi har sv}rt att garantera att ordf/drots, skattm{stare m fl som M]STE vara samma person, faktiskt blir det. Antingen m}ste det st} i stadgarna att drotsen ska vara ordf|rande etc. (vilket {r ett avsteg fr}n demokratin) eller s} m}ste lagen g|ra ett avsteg fr}n feodalismen p} }tminstone dessa punkter (drots, skattm{stare). Vidare har vi den p}g}ende krisen pga BoDs beslut. D{rf|r har vi l}tit SKA-Nordmark leva vidare ett tag till. William From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 14:35:33 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA05523 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:35:29 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:33:36 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA03568; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:35:19 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403041335.AA03568@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Board Backing Down?! (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:35:19 MET Cc: 100040.134@compuserve.com (Mary Hickey) Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > From: polito@phnom-penh.berkeley.edu (Jessica Polito) > Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > Subject: Board Backing Down?! > Date: 4 Mar 1994 08:37:09 GMT > Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department. > Lines: 39 > Message-ID: <2l6rvl$rkl@agate.berkeley.edu> > NNTP-Posting-Host: phnom-penh.berkeley.edu > > I forward this to the Rialto from SCA-West. > --Fiammetta Adalieta > > Cross-posted from CIS: LIVING HISTORY forum > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 03-Mar-94 17:32:56 > Sb: #MAJOR BOARD NEWS !!! > Fm: Peter ELLIS 72707,3564 > To: ALL > > I have from an unquestionable source, Randall Tatro, the information that he > introduced a motion during the Board's conference call last night, March 2nd, > to rescind the January 22nd decision requiring pay-for-play. The motion was > seconded by A.J. Riviezzo. It has been tabled for consideration at the April > Board meeting. > > Randall did not provide me with the exact language of the motion, but the > import is to repeal the universal membership requirement. > > Randall has specifically requested that I post this information onto the Nets, > and I ask for assistance in having it cross-posted to other fora. > > There is the very genuine possibility of progress. The Board may be moving off > dead center. > > Gavin, who is feeling some hope again > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > SCA-West Mail List for the West Kingdom of the SCA > List Info: Send only the word HELP to: sca-west-request@ecst.csuchico.edu > Sponsered by: CSU Chico Dept. of CS & E Problems to: sca-west-owner@ecst > > > -- > HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com > SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag > APD-I: Shade > Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put > together in a random fashion, to create eternity... > > [R] Shade > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. > -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 15:45:27 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA06528 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:45:22 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:43:30 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA04456; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:45:11 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403041445.AA04456@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Tim Moran's Letter (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:45:10 MET Cc: 100040.134@compuserve.com (Mary Hickey) Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > Morgan, > > What you discribed from Gavin, sounds like what I received, so here is > the Letter from Tim Moran. Bertram forwarded it to SCA-Reform. > > Marian > > ---------- Forwarded message begins here ---------- > > Date: 04 Mar 94 00:22:26 EST > From: Ken Mayer <71333.1030@compuserve.com> > To: > Subject: From Tim Moran? > Message-ID: <940304052225_71333.1030_DHQ70-1@CompuServe.COM> > Sender: sca-west-owner@ecst.csuchico.edu > > The following was posted on Compuserve's Living History Forum, Section 13 > (Controversies), and signed by Tim Moran, from "Aimee Moran"'s userid. > > I make no claims to the authenticity of this missive, and am simply sharing > it for your perusal. > > Hirsch > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > #: 11514 S13/Controversies! [FRM-23] > 03-Mar-94 20:25:59 > Sb: Announcement > Fm: Aimee Moran 72134,3635 > To: all > > The Board of Directors made determination at its January meeting which were > considered at the time vital to the health and well-being of the SCA and > necessary to fulfil the Board's legal duties to the organization. > > The Board established the legitimacy of its decisions at that time. It has > since come under significant attack for those legitimately-made decisions. > > At this time, members of the Board have taken action which casts significant > doubt on their earlier actions. The Board has either been compromised in its > ability to meet its legal responsibilities of due diligence to the > Corporation, or has been forsworn in its own statements put forth under my > name to the advisory membership of the SCA regarding the nature of the Board's > business of the time and its responsibilities, authority and governing role. > > In either case, the actions render it impossible for me to carry out the > duties of a director or corporate officer of this organization. > > Accordingly, it is impossible for me to remain as President, as Chairman of > the Board or as a Director of the Board at this time. > > This decision is irrevocable, and is effective immediately. > > I will, of course, always be available to the serving directors and staff of > the Society who may seek the counsel of an advisory member of the SCA, Inc. > > Tim Moran > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > SCA-West Mail List for the West Kingdom of the SCA > List Info: Send only the word HELP to: sca-west-request@ecst.csuchico.edu > Sponsered by: CSU Chico Dept. of CS & E Problems to: sca-west-owner@ecst > > > -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 17:05:19 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA07463 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:05:18 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22284; Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:50:29 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:34:17 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:44:45 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:42:32 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:22:43 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:31:23 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:31:23 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002490000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 233112040394 Message-Id: <233112040394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning Status: RO Harabanar halsar alla som laser detta brev. For att sammanfatta titeldebatten sa langt: Medeltidssvenskan har sina brister som "feodalsprak". Kung, hertig och jarl framstar som entydiga, medan greve inte innebar nagra problem. Friherre verkar faktiskt vara mera ratt an baron. Vad galler eng. viscount framstar viscomte, borggreve och lantgreve ungefar lika daliga. Ingen av titlarna ar tidsenlig svenska, a ena sidan ar den moderna "svenska" termen viscomte, a andra sidan kanns borggreve och lantgreve "mer medeltida" (Jag haller med Peder...) Eftersom tyska, speciellt plattyska, har varit det mest inflytelserika spraket vad galler det svenska spraket for feodala/ridderliga ting passar "-greve" battre. Jag foreslar foljande tillaggslista: SCA Svenska ============================================================================== Baron Baron (om forlanad. behalles av trad. skal) Court Baron Friherre (Ratt tufft) Viscount Viscomte, Borggreve eller Lantgreve efter smak (Det bor kanske sta 'Viscomte' i lagtexten av entydighetsskal) Tanist ??? (Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) Hertig??? - Rabbe From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 17:13:24 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA07561 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:13:23 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22463; Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:17:28 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:03:05 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:13:33 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:11:20 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:10:10 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:18:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:18:33 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002503000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 331816040394 Message-Id: <331816040394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: titlarna Status: RO Rabbe har.... Angaende de 2 meddelandena fran BOD. Its crackin up! Where's my axe... - Harabanar From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 17:14:01 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA07572 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:13:57 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22437; Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:13:27 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:00:07 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:10:36 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:08:23 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:07:10 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:15:40 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:15:40 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002502000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 401516040394 Message-Id: <401516040394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: titlarna Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe svarar Ulfr Frithiof skrev; >Vad jag syftade p} var att en engelsk Earl skall tilltalas "Duke", Enligt "Debretts Etiquette & Modern Manners" skall en Earl tilltalas som=20 "Lord so and so". En Duke skall d{remot tilltalas som "Duke". - Vad Frithiof far efter kan vara att i overhuset sa tilltalas ALLA "Lord". De ar ju jamlika (parer). /UlfR - Harabanar From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 17:14:27 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA07579 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:14:23 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA22411; Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:09:26 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:59:47 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:10:14 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:08:00 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:06:10 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:14:38 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:14:38 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002501000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 381416040394 Message-Id: <381416040394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning Status: RO Harabanar halsar alla som laser detta brev. For att sammanfatta titeldebatten sa langt: Medeltidssvenskan har sina brister som "feodalsprak". Kung, hertig och jarl framstar som entydiga, medan greve inte innebar nagra problem. Friherre verkar faktiskt vara mera ratt an baron. Vad galler eng. viscount framstar viscomte, borggreve och lantgreve ungefar lika daliga. Ingen av titlarna ar tidsenlig svenska, a ena sidan ar den moderna "svenska" termen viscomte, a andra sidan kanns borggreve och lantgreve "mer medeltida" (Jag haller med Peder...) Eftersom tyska, speciellt plattyska, har varit det mest inflytelserika spraket vad galler det svenska spraket for feodala/ridderliga ting passar "-greve" battre. Jag foreslar foljande tillaggslista: SCA Svenska ============================================================================== Baron Baron (om forlanad. behalles av trad. skal) Court Baron Friherre (Ratt tufft) Viscount Viscomte, Borggreve eller Lantgreve efter smak (Det bor kanske sta 'Viscomte' i lagtexten av entydighetsskal) Tanist ??? (Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) Hertig??? - Rabbe From nordmark-request Fri Mar 4 21:44:35 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA10589 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 21:44:32 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2563; Fri, 04 Mar 94 15:44:28 EST Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 9258; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:43:54 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 04 Mar 94 15:43:52 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA25676; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:44:14 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:44:14 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403042044.AA25676@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Subject: Tim Moran's resignation Comment: Please forward to DML, Lough Devnaree, GEnie, Compuserve, MeridiesNet, etc. Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO Greetings from Arval for the Committee to Save Our Society! Today's news includes a report that Tim Moran has resigned from the Board of Directors. Assuming this information is correct (there is no reason to doubt it, but once burned, twice shy), I commend Mr. Moran for this honorable decision. He has shown a commitment to the good of the Society and a willingness to accept and act on criticism even when he sincerely believes that his actions have been appropriate. I applaud Mr. Moran for upholding the best traditions of the Society. But let us not deceive ourselves that Mr. Moran's resignation resolves the problems that we face. Our troubles still remain; the Society is still hostage to the corporate agenda. Our goal is real reform of the governing structure of the Society: Representation and accountability. Nothing less will check the unreasonable power of the Board and nothing less is acceptable. That is the central tenet of the Estrella documents and we must support our Crowns toward that goal. Two weeks ago I wrote to advise against a petition drive to impeach only Mr. Moran: This crisis has nothing to do with individuals or personalities... Casting Tim Moran as scapegoat will not solve the problems that face the Society. If the Board removes him and chooses a like-minded replacement, we will have gained nothing... The current directors have been chosen and trained with the overriding and pervasive assumptions that they are not accountable to the membership, that the health of the corporation is their predominant concern, and that the Society will accept whatever schemes they devise. Those assumptions are pernicious to our Society and must be expunged. I find those words more apt today even than when I first chose them. Tim Moran was never the problem: Like us all, he was a victim of a flawed system and his inability to address the problem by any means short of resignation is one more symptom of the failure of that system. A change of directors will not eliminate the basic inequity. The governing structures of the corporation are fundamentally inappropriate to the Society; if they remain unchanged, then the Board and the Society together will confront these issues once more in a few years as we have faced them several times before. Do not let our resolve be swayed by half-measures: Reform and Reclaim! Master Arval Benicoeur, for the Committee to Save Our Society. From nordmark-request Sat Mar 5 03:27:46 1994 Received: from mail.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id DAA14863 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 03:27:42 +0100 Received: from localhost by mail.netcom.com (8.6.4/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id SAA11562; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:27:52 -0800 From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) Message-Id: <199403050227.SAA11562@mail.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Tim Moran's resignation To: mittle@watson.ibm.com Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: <9403042044.AA25676@blinn.watson.ibm.com> from "Joshua Mittleman" at Mar 4, 94 03:44:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 726 Status: RO Arval: >I commend Mr. Moran for this >honorable decision. He has shown a commitment to the good of the Society >and a willingness to accept and act on criticism even when he sincerely >believes that his actions have been appropriate. I applaud Mr. Moran for >upholding the best traditions of the Society. I hope people have the tact to refrain from offering such a commendation directly to Tim. My reading is that he's resigning because he's had to put up with an unreasonable level of personal abuse since this began, not because he's accepting and acting on criticism. ----- Dani of the Seven Wells dani@netcom.com Roses red and violets blew and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser From nordmark-request Sat Mar 5 13:34:09 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA20708 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:34:08 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA04528 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:33:44 +0100 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:28:02 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: BoD och lagen To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <199403040830.AA06196@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 frithiof@oorgan.dnet wrote: > Jag noterar att diskussionen om hur man l{mpligen titulerar en Viscount= =20 > tydligen {r intressantare {n BoDs senaste p}hitt. >=20 Varf|r inte, det har ju verklighetsanknytning... ;-) > Det lagf|rslag vi sett nyligen avviker p} flera punkter fr}n SCAs=20 > normala lagar, s} mycket att det v{l {r tveksamt om BoD kommer att > sl{ppa igenom det. Varf|r d} inte utforma det s} att SCA-Nordmark > kan accepteras som en Svensk f|rening? >=20 > Som det nu {r, s} m}ste vi ju ha en "skuggf|rening" f|r att kunna |ppna= =20 > postgirokonton bland annat. Det borde g} att sammanf|ra de tv} f|reningar= na=20 > till en, och slippa begreppsf|rvirring och kr}ngel.=20 >=20 > Hur {r det f|rresten, kan tillexempel Drachenwald g|ra anspr}k p} de=20 > pengar som finns p} ett postgirokonto registrerat p} SKA-Nordmark? > Om alla betalningar g|rs till och fr}n SKAs konton, {r de d} giltiga=20 > inom SCA? Jag t{nker d} p} evenemangsavgifter, prenumerationer, o.dyl. Varf|r skulle Drachenwald ha n}got att g|ra med den helt oberoende=20 Svenska f|reningen SKA-Nordmark, eller dess ekonomi? "V}ra" pengar {r helt= =20 s{kra fr}n BoD. Pengar betalade till SKA-Nordmark f|r SCA-evenemang {r inte konstigare {n= =20 att autokraten anger sitt eget pg f|r evenemangsvgifter, etc. Alla pren=20 som {r innom _SCA_ g}r ju via Milpitas; Sparren {r n}got helt annat=20 (fr}ga; {r den en officiell "SCA-publikation"?). > Ska vi nu chocka BoD med ett radikalt lagf|rslag, varf|r d} inte ta=20 > steget fullt ut? Om de skriker och sl}r ifr}n sig kan vi ju "backa"=20 > till det nuvarande f|rslaget, och l}ta dem tro att de har vunnit! >=20 > =09=09=09Frithiof, brandfacklet{ndare >=20 /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Sat Mar 5 13:42:47 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA20789 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:42:45 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA04569 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:42:20 +0100 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:37:32 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: titlarna To: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se Cc: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se, frithiof@oorgan.dnet, nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <199403041037.AA00930@meryl.csd.uu.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 vader@meryl.csd.uu.se wrote: > Min erfarenhet {r att Earl-ar kallas Lord, hertigar Duke. > Plus att tilltalsformen {r "your grace" f|r en hertig. > =20 > N}gon skrev att earlens fru kallas "duchess" -- dokumentation??? >=20 F|r att }terv{nda till min tidigare k{lla (Debrett's): Duke - Duchess (tituleras Duke/Duchess)=20 Earl - Countess (tituleras Lord/Lady Foobar) > William /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Sat Mar 5 13:53:05 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA20883 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:53:04 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA04653 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:51:27 +0100 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:48:10 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <233112040394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO Rabbe skrev: >(Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) Vi har ju dock Macbeth, thane of Glamis and Cawdor, s} helt otidsenligt=20 kan den v{l inte vara. Men p} svenska...? /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Sun Mar 6 00:18:44 1994 Received: from goliat.dc.luth.se (root@goliat.dc.luth.se [130.240.12.20]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA00196 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 00:18:43 +0100 Received: from unauthenticated@meryl.csd.uu.se by goliat.dc.luth.se with SMTP (5.67b8/IDA-1.2.8-NS) id AA03124; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 23:22:59 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA18551 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Sat, 5 Mar 1994 23:21:40 +0100 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 23:21:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199403052221.AA18551@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se Cc: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net, nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Par Leijonhufvud k1h's message of Sat, 5 Mar 1994 13:48:10 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO [r inte "than" ett ord som finns p} svenska? Thanen av Fylke i Sagan om Ringen t ex. William From nordmark-request Sun Mar 6 21:39:18 1994 Received: from eddie.ludd.luth.se (bubba@eddie.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.8]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id VAA12005 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:39:18 +0100 From: "U.J|rgen \hman" Received: from localhost (bubba@localhost) by eddie.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) id VAA20707 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:38:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199403062038.VAA20707@eddie.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Lagen & Bod To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (sca) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:38:56 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 726 Status: RO Mj|dtunga h{r....Salve allihop Jag vill bara tala om att jag tycker det {r mycket nu.... ...jag har som haft lite sv}rt att l{sa allt om titlar och BoD och svara p} lagf|rslaget pga att jag g|r min sista praktik som blivande f|rskoll{rare. N}ja nog om det, jag tror p} att sikta betydligt h|gre {n man vill n}. Det g{ller allts} lagf|rslagets framl{ggande f|r BoD. Om Nordmark l{gger fram ett f|rslag som, om det skulle g} igenom, g|r Nordmark till universums mitt (bildligt talat), d} kastar nog BoD det i papperskorgen. D} kan v{l Nordmark l{gga fram ett "sn{llare" f|rslag som BoD kan acceptera men som g|r Nordmark till ett st{lle som vi kan acceptera med gl{dje. Tack och hej, var sn{ll mot en v{n. /Ulf Mj|dtunga. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 08:04:08 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA19234 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:04:07 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA15239; Mon, 7 Mar 94 07:03:32 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 07:53:47 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:04:22 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:01:53 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:00:14 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:05:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:05:45 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002549000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 450508070394 Message-Id: <450508070394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: BoD och lagen Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe Svarar Ulfr: att autokraten anger sitt eget pg f|r evenemangsvgifter, etc. Alla pren=20 som {r innom _SCA_ g}r ju via Milpitas; Sparren {r n}got helt annat=20 (fr}ga; {r den en officiell "SCA-publikation"?). - Nej, endast Kungarikestidningar och TI ar officiella /UlfR - Rabbe From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 08:35:16 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA19629 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:35:13 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA15446; Mon, 7 Mar 94 07:34:38 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:24:52 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:35:29 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:33:01 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:31:24 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:36:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:36:54 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002551000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 543608070394 Message-Id: <543608070394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbes kommentar till UlfRs svar till Rabbe.... Rabbe skrev: >(Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) Vi har ju dock Macbeth, thane of Glamis and Cawdor, s} helt otidsenligt=20 kan den v{l inte vara. Men p} svenska...? - Den forklaring jag har fatt i SCA till 'Tanist' ar att det ar nan slags Irisk titel, medan 'Tanista' ar en helt igenom SCAitisk femininisering. Varfor dessa titlar skulle passa just en tronfoljare till ett furstendome ar holjt i morker. /UlfR - Rabbe From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 08:59:23 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA19950 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:59:20 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 07:57:19 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA08764; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:59:03 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403070759.AA08764@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 8:59:03 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > Rabbe skrev: > >(Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) > > Vi har ju dock Macbeth, thane of Glamis and Cawdor, s} helt otidsenligt=20 > kan den v{l inte vara. Men p} svenska...? > > - Den forklaring jag har fatt i SCA till 'Tanist' ar att det ar nan slags > Irisk titel, medan 'Tanista' ar en helt igenom SCAitisk femininisering. > Varfor dessa titlar skulle passa just en tronfoljare till ett > furstendome ar holjt i morker. Jo men SCA aer ju helt foersjunken i den Moerka Medeltiden, saa..;) Dessutom om vi genomfoer Kroeningen direkt efter Torneringe, paa samma tillstaellning, saa slipper vi problemet helt och haallet...!!! ;) > /UlfR > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 09:45:23 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id JAA20756 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:45:20 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id JAA10412 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:45:12 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403070845.JAA10412@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: BoD och lagen To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 9:45:04 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Catrin skriver (som kommentar till Frithiof): > >Hur {r det f|rresten, kan tillexempel Drachenwald g|ra anspr}k p} de > >pengar som finns p} ett postgirokonto registrerat p} SKA-Nordmark? > >... ... ... > Ungef{r vad jag {r ute efter med fr}gan hur Nordmark juridiskt sett > f|rh}ller sig till resten av SCA. Ska vi p} n}got s{tt reagera p} BoD:s > utspel s} borde vi vara medvetna om var vi st}r och vad f|ljderna kan bli. Precis som Morgan tidigare p}pekat, s} {r Nordmarks pengar {n s} l{nge helt s{kra (ja, det {r ju f|rst}s SKA-Nordmarks demokratiskt valda styrelsen som best{mmer |ver dem, men det {r sm{llar man f}r ta :-) Jag {r helt s{ker p} att s} blir fallet om man g|r banden mellan SCA Inc. och Nordmark fastare genom stadge-{ndringar. Det {r bl_a d{rf|r som den nuvarande styrelsen inte l{gger f|rslag p} s}dana {ndringar (vi hade dem uppe till diskussion, men n{r vi m{rkte BoD-krisen, som la vi de planerna p} is. > Ja. Argumentet att en svensk ideell f|rening m}ste vara demokratisk f|r > att vara laglig kan nog byggas ut att r{cka ganska l}ngt. Tyv{rr s} finns det ingen s}dan lag. Det enda som i Sverige kr{vs av en ideell f|rening {r att styrelsen varje }r granskas av medlemmarna, som d{refter beslutar om den (styrelsen) ska f} ansvarsfrihet eller inte. I |vrigt finns inga krav fr}n Sveriges sida att en f|rening p} n}got s{tt ska vara demokratisk. /Peder From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 10:30:12 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA21275 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:30:09 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA22807; Mon, 7 Mar 94 10:32:02 +0100 Subject: Om BoD och lagen samt Titlar To: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 10:30:10 +0100 Message-Id: <940307.103010.40566@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO Herr Peder skriver: >... ... ... >Jag {r helt s{ker p} att s} blir fallet om man g|r banden mellan SCA Inc. >och Nordmark fastare genom stadge-{ndringar. Det {r bl_a d{rf|r som >den nuvarande styrelsen inte l{gger f|rslag p} s}dana {ndringar (vi >hade dem uppe till diskussion, men n{r vi m{rkte BoD-krisen, som la vi >de planerna p} is. Att _vad_ blir fallet, att Nordmarks pengar inte kommer att vara skyddade fr}n SCA Inc? >... ... ... >Tyv{rr s} finns det ingen s}dan lag. Det enda som i Sverige kr{vs av >en ideell f|rening {r att styrelsen varje }r granskas av medlemmarna, >som d{refter beslutar om den (styrelsen) ska f} ansvarsfrihet eller >inte. I |vrigt finns inga krav fr}n Sveriges sida att en f|rening p} >n}got s{tt ska vara demokratisk. Det r{cker mycket l}ngt. Vilka chanser till ansvarsfrihet skulle en styrelse ha som dubblerade sina egna fickpengar utan saklig motivering och dessutom hemligst{mplade sina protokoll? Sj{lvklart st}r det inte i f|reningslagen ((-stadgan? Har inte slagit upp sj{lv.)) att en ideell f|rening m}ste vara "demokratisk" - utan n{rmare definition {r det kravet meningsl|st. Och f|rresten, om det inte st}r n}gonstans att styrelsemedlemmar ska v{ljas av f|reningsmedlemmarna, att det ska finnas f|redragningslistor och protokoll, att dessa ska vara tillg{ngliga f|r alla medlemmar, m. m. m. m., varf|r g|r alla ideella f|reningar ett s} stort nummer av det? Inte f|r att }rsm|tena ska bli l{ngre och folk ska k{nna sig m{rkv{rdiga, v{l? Och aprop} titeldebatten: S}vitt jag f|rst}r s} {r "thane" den autentiska titeln i sammanhanget. "Tanista" uppkom inom SCA genom behovet av en feminin motsvarighet och "tanist" {r en simpel felaktig "avfeminisering" av denna. S} g{rna "tan" och "tanista" (Eller en b{ttre femininform? F{rslag, n}gon?), men "tanist" ger mig tandv{rk. I |vrigt en appl}d till Harabanars f|rslag. Salvete, Catrin Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 10:48:45 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA21484 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:48:40 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:46:37 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA10458; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:48:26 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403070948.AA10458@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Song: "Bohemian Rhinohide" by Lord Snorri (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 10:48:25 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden Path: hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!munnari.oz.au!newsroom.utas.edu.au!ccresources6h59.its.utas.edu.au!user From: ga_tewes@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Song: "Bohemian Rhinohide" by Lord Snorri Followup-To: rec.org.sca Date: 6 Mar 1994 22:55:38 GMT Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia) Lines: 67 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ccresources6h59.its.utas.edu.au From: Lord Snorri Bl—ddrekkr —r Odinslundi, oft described as St Ursula's Bane. Well, dear readers, it had to happen: While listening to a particularly execrable, karaoke rendition of Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody", one lo-o-ong night at work ( I'm a bouncer....sorry, Hotel Security ) I felt the first stirrings of the: "Bohemian Rhinohide". Where is my lady? Why won't she talk to me? Trapped on the Eric, with no escape from Stick-Jockery. Shading my eyes, I look to the Lists to see: It's just the fourth round -- I need some ginger-mead, Because the Sun is high, my shield is low, I've bruised my thigh, and stubbed my toe. Should I take that sword-blow? Oops, I think I've lost my left knee ( left knee ). My lord, I think I've won; laid my sword upside your head, Creased your helm and you're not dead? My lord, your blow took my arm; don't feel you have to throw your shield away. Marshalls, cry "Lay on!" The populace draws nigh, And I'll be stiff and sore this time tomorrow, Parry on, parry on, as if nothing's really battered... Huzzah! The bout I've won! Sweat trickles down my spine, What's that list-shield next to mine? Slowly! My lord Herald, don't hurry so! Got to have a drink or two, and shake it loose. Curses! What'd he do? ( Should I take that sword-blow? ) The Sun is in my eyes, I wish this lord just wasn't so quick and small... I see a little Florentino of a man, Oh! forsooth! Oh! forsooth! Will you look at his swords go? Lunging forth and feinting,-- very disconcerting me! Lunging high, feinting low! Feinting high, lunging low! Lunging high and feinting low: Where did he go? My sword-arm's heavy, and my sight is blurring, He's just a new guy, from a small Barony! Spare him his life if he yields on his knees. Hit him high! Hit him low! Will you take that blow? Bit tippy? No! I will not take that blow! ( Take that blow! ) Bit tippy? I will not take that blow! ( Take that blow! ) Bit tippy? I will not take that blow! ( Take that blow! ) Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! HOLD! Oh, lady Marshall, lady Marshall, Will you make him take that blow? His helm's come off and he's dropping slowly to his knees, his knees, his knees... So you say that my new armour catches your eye? And you've thought of some wonderful new ways to die? Oh, Lady! Be my consort, dear Lady! It's final round, please say you'll wait for me here. ( ooh, Oy, yay! Oy, yay! ) Nothing's really battered, except my sore left knee... Nothing's really battered, nothing's really battered, on me... Should I take that sword-blow? *the end* Ynys Fawr/Lochac/West -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 10:49:31 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA21496 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:49:17 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:46:56 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA10467; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:48:45 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403070948.AA10467@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Mission & Model (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 10:48:45 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Path: hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ds4p+ From: David Schroeder Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Mission & Model Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 22:13:23 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 281 Message-ID: <4hSdjHi00WB_8arEkX@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu Hi folks! Thought you might enjoy what follows... * * * * I N T R O D U C T I O N * * * * WHAT NEXT? Many people have circulated their ideas about where we go from here. I personally believe that we need to start with definitions of just what the Society is, what the Corporation is, and what the _mission_ of the Corporation should be. Only then can we go on to figure out what reforms to put in place, since if we don't know where we're going, any road will get us there. Completely understanding that these ideas are just one set of suggestions among many, but wanting to get them out on the table so that readers could have a chance to help improve them, I offer my first pass at definitions, a mission statement, and some suggested reforms. * * * * D E F I N I T I O N S * * * * WHAT IS THE SOCIETY? The Society for Creative Anachronism is a group of people interested in a learning-by-doing approach to history, who come together in the context of a shared Romantic, Chivalric culture. The Society's primary, though not exclusive historical focus is on Europe and its near neighbors during the Middle Ages and Renaissance and the Society's ideals are those of Chaucer's Knight who loved "chivalrie, trouthe and honour, freedom and curteisie." All who share our ideals and our love for history are welcome in the Society. WHAT IS THE CORPORATION? The Society for Creative Anachronism, Incorporated is a nonprofit educational corporation, chartered in California, that ensures that a limited set of services, such as umbrella insurance policies, mailing list management, bookkeeping, and financial reporting are provided to the people of the Society for Creative Anachronism. * * * * * * * * C O R P O R A T E * * * * * * * * * * * * M I S S I O N S T A T E M E N T * * * * The mission of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Incorporated is to assure that the people of the Society for Creative Anachronism receive the limited set of services it is chartered to deliver in a cost-effective, high quality manner. The Corporation is dedicated to keeping the administrative and regulatory burden placed on the people of the Society for Creative Anachronism to a minimum. * * * S O M E S U G G E S T E D R E F O R M S * * * The general philosophy behind these suggestions is that the people who use the services of the Society should have the freedom to choose the specific services they want, without being forced to take bundled services they _don't_ want. It is also based on the model that each service should "pay its own way" and not be subsized to any great extent by the other services. Many of the specifics of these suggestions are based on a "mostly the same" sort of overall structure, with a centralized, though severely circumscribed SCA, Inc. providing services -- probably through an association management firm. However, many of these ideas can also be applied to other, more comprehensively decentralized models. I look forward to your comments and suggestions. My best -- Bertram * * * * * * * * S P E C I F I C S * * * * * * * * * * * MEMBERSHIP There would be three classes of membership, detailed below. All publication subscriptions would be unbundled from memberships. 1) Participatory members are any individuals who state that they wish to be considered as participatory members and who have paid to attend an SCA event in the preceding 24 months. There would be no additional charge for these memberships. 2) Registered members are those who have waivers on file and receive registered member membership cards. They would be priced at under $10 and would cover the cost of keeping the waiver on file, printing and mailing the membership card, insurance, and a contribution to the overhead of the corporation. Fighters and those who need formal proof of membership might be required to be registered members, for instance. Depending on answers to insurance and legal questions registered memberships may or may not be required to hold major offices. 3) Voting members are registered members who also have the right to vote for members of the Board of Trustees of the SCA, Inc. (according to whatever method might be set in terms of numbers of members, rotations, etc.) They would be priced at or less than $20 and would include the cost of conducting any polls, plus a higher level of contribution to the insurance and overhead pool. The exact mechanisms of how voting (or perhaps "advising" if the current non-member incorporation is maintained) would depend on many other decisions, but only "voters" would have a right to formal input on new trustees. There may be surcharges for the increased costs of postage and funds processing for non-U.S. members, though such charges might be reduced by the fact that insurance policies don't apply to non-U.S. members, etc. PUBLICATIONS All publication subscriptions will be unbundled from memberships. Publication prices will also be increased to cover the cost of the overhead of printing mailing labels and a pro-rata share of the cost of maintaining the mailing list, o Kingdom newsletters would be able to set their own prices (plus the processing overhead) so that the different needs of different sized kingdoms could allow flexible pricing. The Outlandish Herald, serving a small kingdom, might be less expensive than the Pale, serving a large kingdom, for example, since fewer pages of event announcements would be needed o Tournaments Illuminated would become the Arts & Sciences quarterly journal of the Society, with no further pages lost to official announcements, notes on Board Minutes, or the like. Pricing would also be free to increase if the subscribers were willing to pay for a bigger and/or better magazine. o The Compleat Anachronist would function much the same way it does now -- as an optional publication, again with a slightly higher fee due to its share of the overhead. o The Board Minutes, retitled and clearly dubbed as informa- tional, rather than official, would continue to be published in much the same way they have been. o A new publication, The Official Bull, (or something like that) would be added that would include all the standard official policy statements, rules, and annoucements from Corporate Officers, the Board, and so on. It might also have the rumored two-page descriptive summary of the Board Minutes and would probably be published bimonthly. o Other official publications, like the Fighter's Handbook, Known World Handbook, and so on would continue to be available, priced to return a reasonable profit to fund printing future editions and cover overhead Policies could be set to ensure that people doing various jobs in the Society would have the resources they need to do their jobs safely and in a well-informed manner. For example: o Fighters would need to be registered members so that their waivers are on file (if, indeed, register-to-fight turns out to be a real requirement). Likewise for other people on the tourney- or battle-field. Only some officers would need to be registered members. It would depend on what turns out to really be the case about liability. o Officers might be required to subscribe to the Official Bull and their kingdom newsletters, etc. Here are a few examples of how this might price out in practice. OLD = with current fees BOD = Board's increased fees PRO = using the PROposed model Mistress Jane, a "retired" Laurel from Calontir, now living in the Midrealm, who gets to two events a year, would not need to be anything except a participatory member. She subscribes to the Pale and the Mews third class, gets T.I., and C.A. She's not active enough to be an officer. OLD COST: $25 (KN,TI) + $8 (Mews) + $8 (CA) = $41 BOD COST: $35 (KN,TI) + $8 (Mews) + $8 (CA) = $51 PRO COST: $12 (KN) + $8 (TI) + $10 (Mews) + $10 (CA) = $40 Lord John, an up-and-coming fighter and a shire seneschal, goes to two events a month around central Meridies. He gets Popular Chivalry, the Official Bull, and couldn't care less about TI, though he wants to have a say in things so he buys a voting membership and subscribes to the Board "Minutes". OLD COST: $25(KN,TI) + $8(BMin) + (No Vote) = $33 BOD COST: $35(KN,TI) + $8(BMin) + (No Vote) = $43 PRO COST: $20(Vote) + $8(BMin) + $12(KN) + $6(OB) = $46 Patrick and Brigit have been coming to events for the last year in An Tir and have now decided to get their own copy of The Crier so they don't have to bug their friend Mairi all the time to find out about upcoming events. They have two kids in Junior High who really enjoy the Society. OLD COST: $25(KN,TI) = $25 BOD COST: $35(KN,TI) + 3 * $10(Family) = $65 PRO COST: $12(KN) = $12 I'm sure people can use these examples as a guideline to calculate how their own situation would price out. Depending on the relative cost of the insurance policy it might still be a good idea to have some small amount (in the range of twenty to fifty cents) per attendee at SCA events be sent to the Corporation to help defray insurance costs in the same envelope with the day-waivers to be filed, but we'd have to wait and see if the actual amounts involved made it worth the hassle. * * * * * * * * C L O S I N G * * * * * * * * * * * Thanks for reading this far, friends. Unbundling the services of the Corporation and re-instating the old category of membership that included all participants in SCA activities are ideas that should be considered in future reform discussions. Kingdoms wouldn't be evaluated on their number of sustaining and associate members any longer, but on the more tangible evidence of their level of activity. Principalities would be created or advanced to kingdoms using the same yardstick. Are they having lots of events? Do they have enough stable groups? Do their royal lists have a competitive field of a decent size? Are they teaching and studying history, arts, and sciences? You get the idea. Remember that we tend to get the behaviors we reward for. In many of the smaller and younger kingdoms, like Trimaris and the Outlands, there is a strong "you really *ought* to be a member" culture because the reward of having lots of members was the privilege of being a kingdom and staying one. Using this model, people are rewarded for having events, for having lots of good fighters in tourneys, and for advancing the arts and sciences. That's a win. A closing question: If we restore the old notion of "participatory membership," what used to be Class H memberships in the original Corpora, do we still need to make such a big deal about emphasizing the *differences* between the Society and the Corporation? I'd better wrap up for now, folks, and spend time reading *your* thoughts and observations. Take care -- my best -- Bertram +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "In Order that a Religious Institution or a State should long survive it is essential that it should frequently be Restored to its original principles." -- Machievelli, _Discourses_, Book III, discourse 1 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Bertram of Bearington . Debatable Lands . AEthelmearc . East Kingdom . SCA Dave Schroeder . 117 Gordon Street . Pittsburgh . PA 412.731.3230 -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 11:06:55 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA21663 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:06:53 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id LAA11613 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:06:45 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403071006.LAA11613@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: BoD och lagen To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 11:06:42 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Lady Catrin undrar: > Att _vad_ blir fallet...? Och det {r inte s} konstigt. Det f|ll n{mligen bort en negation, som gjort hela stycket felaktigt. Det ska vara: Precis som Morgan tidigare p}pekat, s} {r Nordmarks pengar {n s} l{nge helt s{kra (ja, det {r ju f|rst}s SKA-Nordmarks demokratiskt valda styrelsen som best{mmer |ver dem, men det {r sm{llar man f}r ta :-) Jag {r inte helt s{ker p} att s} blir fallet om man g|r banden mellan SCA Inc. och Nordmark fastare genom stadge-{ndringar. Det {r bl_a d{rf|r som den nuvarande styrelsen inte l{gger f|rslag p} s}dana {ndringar (vi hade dem uppe till diskussion, men n{r vi m{rkte BoD-krisen, som la vi de planerna p} is. Och jag menar att om vi knyter Nordmark n{rmare SCA Inc, s} riskerar vi bl_a att vi kan f|rlora v}ra pengar. Som det {r idag, {r de s{kra. Vidare: > Sj{lvklart st}r det inte i f|reningslagen Det finns varken lag eller stadga om f|reningar. Ist{llet g{ller sedvaner{tt: Sedv{njor g{ller som lag vid r{ttsfall, utan att ha kodifierats. > Och f|rresten, om det inte st}r n}gonstans att styrelsemedlemmar ska > v{ljas av f|reningsmedlemmarna, att det ska finnas f|redragnings- > listor och protokoll, att dessa ska vara tillg{ngliga f|r alla > medlemmar, m. m. m. m., varf|r g|r alla ideella f|reningar ett s} > stort nummer av det? Inte f|r att }rsm|tena ska bli l{ngre och folk > ska k{nna sig m{rkv{rdiga, v{l? Orsakerna {r tv}: 1) man _VILL_ vara demokratiska, och ge alla medlemmar medbest{mmande. 2) m}nga kommuner kr{ver detta f|r att f|reningen ska godk{nnas f|r 0-taxering (l}na lokaler gratis) och kunna f} kommunala bidrag. /Peder From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 12:24:32 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA22665 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:24:30 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA17109; Mon, 7 Mar 94 11:23:55 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:14:08 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; attempted /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Rerouted; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:10:10 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:07:40 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:05:48 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:11:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:11:08 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002572000003] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 081112070394 Message-Id: <081112070394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se, nordmark-request@ludd.semil.400net.tip.net Subject: Re: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning (fwd) Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe pa Morgan pa Rabbe pa UlfR pa Rabbe... > Rabbe skrev: > >(Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) > > Vi har ju dock Macbeth, thane of Glamis and Cawdor, s} helt otidsenligt=20 > kan den v{l inte vara. Men p} svenska...? > > - Den forklaring jag har fatt i SCA till 'Tanist' ar att det ar nan slags > Irisk titel, medan 'Tanista' ar en helt igenom SCAitisk femininisering. > Varfor dessa titlar skulle passa just en tronfoljare till ett > furstendome ar holjt i morker. Jo men SCA aer ju helt foersjunken i den Moerka Medeltiden, saa..;) Dessutom om vi genomfoer Kroeningen direkt efter Torneringe, paa samma tillstaellning, saa slipper vi problemet helt och haallet...!!! ;) - Gor man inte, eftersom det sakert behovs ett lagrum och lamplig titel aven for tiden mellan Tornering och Hov... > /UlfR > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// - Rabbe (igen ?) From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 13:22:54 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA23552 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:22:52 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA02492 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for Nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:22:47 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:22:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199403071222.AA02492@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Cc: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se's message of Mon, 7 Mar 94 10:30:10 +0100 <940307.103010.40566@macpost.lu.se> Subject: Om BoD och lagen samt Titlar From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO "Tanist", f|retr{dare f|r tanismen, en gammal religion fr}n Yttre Mongoliet, som tror att man n}r fr{lsning genom att smiska varandra med rotting. :-) Wm t Nasty From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 13:28:22 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA23602 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:28:20 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA02582 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:28:16 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:28:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199403071228.AA02582@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: till salu From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William h{r. Vid st{dning i mitt garage hittade jag f|ljande som jag kan t{nkas skiljas fr}n f|r en moderat summa: 1 florett 1 manuell v{rja 2 elektriska v{rjor 1 f{ktmask 1 plastrong samt en handgr{sklippare som bortsk{nkes mot avh{mtning... William de Corbie From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 13:33:35 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA23658 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:33:27 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:31:27 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA11916; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:33:16 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403071233.AA11916@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Rabbe/Morgan/Rabbe/Ulfr... To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 13:33:16 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > Jo men SCA aer ju helt foersjunken i den Moerka Medeltiden, saa..;) > Dessutom om vi genomfoer Kroeningen direkt efter Torneringen, paa samma > tillstaellning, saa slipper vi problemet helt och haallet...!!! ;) > > - Gor man inte, eftersom det sakert behovs ett lagrum och lamplig titel > aven for tiden mellan Tornering och Hov... Varfoer ? De kan bara tituleras "Arvingar"(Heirs) om man tvunget maaste ha naagon speciell "titel" foer dem.... I vilket sammanhag kan titeln behoevas, under de timmar som gaar mellan tornering och kroening...? > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 13:37:00 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA23694 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:36:57 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:34:56 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA11936; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:36:45 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403071236.AA11936@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Om BoD och lagen samt Titlar (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 13:36:44 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > "Tanist", f|retr{dare f|r tanismen, en gammal religion fr}n > Yttre Mongoliet, som tror att man n}r fr{lsning genom att > smiska varandra med rotting. :-) > > Wm t Nasty Tanist = Western knight whom has been laying around in the Sun too long....;) Ld In'Vis Ble From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 16:52:14 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA26664 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:52:10 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA16971 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:52:03 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403071552.QAA16971@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Kom till Krontorneringen! To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 16:52:01 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Rurik Dj{rfe fra Thulunge, h{lsar genom Peder Klingrode, och s{ger: Nu {r det h|g tid att anm{la sig till festligheterna vid Krontorneringen! ========================================================================= F|r att vi ska hur m}nga kaniner vi ska slakta, m}ste vi f|re denna veckas slut (dvs. senast den 11:e mars) veta hur m}nga som skall {ta festmiddagen vid Krontorneringen. SKynda p}! Den som kommer f|r sent, f}r h}lla n|ja sig med kyckling! Anm{lan till autokraten: Rurik Dj{rfe fra Thulunge C-A Gerstel Paddalsliden 2483, 890 31 ARN[SVALL 0660-63147 SPRID DETTA! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Och f|r er som gl|mt ett eller annat, k|r vi h{r annonsen i sin helhet: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Drachenwald Crown Tourney ========================= The incipient canton of Uma, sponsored by the barony of Nordmark, invites all Drachenwald to crown tourney on the 25:th-27:th of March A.S. XVIII (1994 C.E.). The tourney will be held on Saturday, to select the new King and Queen of Drachenwald, and afterwards we'll celebrate the new Royal Couple with a small banquet. This will take place at Gide}g}rden (no street address), Gide} (outside \rnsk|ldsvik), Sweden. The site will open at 17:00 Friday, March 25; and close 16:00, Sunday March 27. How to get to Gide} ------------------- By car from the south: Take road E4 to about 10 km north of \rnsk|ldsvik in Arn{svall take a left turn, then a right one and then left again. Follow the signs to \"Ornsk|ldsvik airport. After about 20 km take a left turn towards Bj|rna and Gide} (not towards the airport). After a few kilometers take right towards Gide}. Drive over the bridge, past the post-office and the ICA grocery-shop. On the left side, about 30 m from the road, there is a yellow brickwall with the word Gide}g}rden on. You are at your goal! By car from the north: Take road E4 south from Ume}. At Husum take the road towards \"Ornsk|ldsvik airport. Drive about 20 km (you'll pass the airport) and take right towards Gide}. Drive over the bridge, and follow the directions above. By train: Order a ticket to \"Ornsk|ldsvik. At the same time, order a train-taxi (SEK 60.-) to the Gide}school. The taxi will be waiting for you in Mellansel (the train-stop for \"Ornsk|ldsvik). By air: Fly your broomstick, DC9 or whatever to \"Ornsk|ldsvik airport. Arrange with the autocrat to pick you up at the airport. Be prepared to pay for the petrol. By weekend bus from Stockholm or other cities. Arrange with the autocrat to pick you up in \"Ornsk|ldsvik. Be prepared to pay for the petrol. Fees ---- Event fee (including crash space) 85.-- Breakfast (Sat and Sun) 20.--/day Lunch (Sat and Sun) 17.50/day Dinner (Fri) 20.-- Banquet (on board) 80.-- (off board) 20.-- Unconfirmed participants 75.-- All prices are in SEK. One US dollar is about 8.2 SEK (1994-01-17) With your reservation, please report your name, address, what you are paying for, allergies, if you require vegetarian food and if you are going to take part in the tourney. Note that the reservation is binding! For faster handling, you may send your reservation by FAX to +46-(0)90-133840, and don't forget to leave your own FAX number for the confirmation! If possible pay to Nordmark postal giro account (PostGiro), 340 700-4 SKA-Nordmark, else at the door. For those who aren't satisfied with a school floor to sleep on, there are the following alternatives: Hotell Bj|rnen, Husum. 20 km from Gide}. SEK 450.-/weekend for a doubleroom, breakfast included. Phone +46-(0)663-10720. Bj|rnforsens Turist & Konferenshotell. 25 km from Gide}. SEK 200.-/bed in a 2-bed room. Breakfast SEK 35.- Bring warm clothes with you, since the tourney is taking place outside. If it's too cold (-25 C and below) we'll move inside, to a gymnasium, and participating fighters will then be required to wear shoes with a non-coloured sole. Please note that the temperature remark is not a joke! If you get lost in Sweden, or get in other troubles, you can always reach us on the emergency number to our cellular phone, +46-(0)10-225 85 46. WELCOME! wishes the autocrats Rurik Dj{rfe fra Thulunge C-A Gerstel phone 0660-63147 Paddalsliden 2483 890 31 ARNASVALL Catharina Ulfsdotter Katarina Klingberg phone 090-131608 Terr{ngv{gen 3 C 903 38 UME] From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 19:01:43 1994 Received: from BU.EDU (BU.EDU [128.197.27.7]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA28304 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:01:39 +0100 Received: from math.bu.edu by BU.EDU (1.99) Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:59:44 -0500 Received: by math.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.1) id AA17175; Mon, 7 Mar 94 12:58:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 12:58:35 -0500 From: jeffs@math.bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) Message-Id: <9403071758.AA17175@math.bu.edu> To: mittle@watson.ibm.com Cc: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: <9403042044.AA25676@blinn.watson.ibm.com> (mittle@watson.ibm.com) Subject: Re: Tim Moran's resignation Status: RO Arval writes: >Our troubles still remain; the Society is still hostage to the >corporate agenda. Our goal is real reform of the governing structure >of the Society: Representation and accountability. Nothing less will >check the unreasonable power of the Board and nothing less is >acceptable. > >... >Do not let our resolve be swayed by half-measures: Reform and Reclaim! For my two scudi.... At this point, we have a fairly well established organization to deal with the current mess. I think it's a good idea to maintain it even after the current crisis, to keep it as a sort of "watchdog" committee, and keep the members informed about what the Board intends to do next. That way, the chances of something like this ever sneaking up on us again are lessened, and the chances of having more time to react and organize to it are increased. Tio From nordmark-request Mon Mar 7 19:55:04 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA28766 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:55:02 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA09393 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:51:01 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:51:01 +0100 Message-Id: <199403071851.AA09393@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: jeffs@math.bu.edu Cc: mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: Jeff Suzuki's message of Mon, 7 Mar 94 12:58:35 -0500 <9403071758.AA17175@math.bu.edu> Subject: Tim Moran's resignation From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William de Corbie here. I'm a bit in the dark. What happens now? Several Board members resign. How many are left? Have they indicated what they plan to do? Are they planning to restore the Board by electing new members and continue business as usual, or have they shown some sort of willingness to consider real changes? William From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 08:54:12 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA06939 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:54:10 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA24586; Tue, 8 Mar 94 07:53:36 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:43:47 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:54:21 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:51:45 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:50:14 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:54:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:54:07 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002616000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 075408080394 Message-Id: <075408080394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Rabbe/Morgan/Rabbe/Ulfr... Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe (fjarde gangen, tror jag...) > > Jo men SCA aer ju helt foersjunken i den Moerka Medeltiden, saa..;) > Dessutom om vi genomfoer Kroeningen direkt efter Torneringen, paa samma > tillstaellning, saa slipper vi problemet helt och haallet...!!! ;) > > - Gor man inte, eftersom det sakert behovs ett lagrum och lamplig titel > aven for tiden mellan Tornering och Hov... Varfoer ? De kan bara tituleras "Arvingar"(Heirs) om man tvunget maaste ha naagon speciell "titel" foer dem.... I vilket sammanhag kan titeln behoevas, under de timmar som gaar mellan tornering och kroening...? - En benamning kan behovas for att kunna referera till dem i lagtexten, men jag haller med om att "Arvingarna" kan vara tillfyllest, aven om det later litet fanigt. > - Rabbe Ciao Morgan// - Rabbe From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 09:21:39 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA07312 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:21:35 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:19:30 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA22519; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:21:18 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403080821.AA22519@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Re: Rabbe/Morgan/Rabbe/Ulfr... To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 9:21:17 MET Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) In-Reply-To: <075408080394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS>; from "mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net" at Mar 8, 94 8:54 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > - Rabbe (fjarde gangen, tror jag...) > > > > > Jo men SCA aer ju helt foersjunken i den Moerka Medeltiden, saa..;) > > Dessutom om vi genomfoer Kroeningen direkt efter Torneringen, paa samma > > tillstaellning, saa slipper vi problemet helt och haallet...!!! ;) > > > > - Gor man inte, eftersom det sakert behovs ett lagrum och lamplig titel > > aven for tiden mellan Tornering och Hov... > > Varfoer ? De kan bara tituleras "Arvingar"(Heirs) om man tvunget > maaste ha naagon speciell "titel" foer dem.... > > I vilket sammanhag kan titeln behoevas, under de timmar som gaar > mellan tornering och kroening...? > > - En benamning kan behovas for att kunna referera till dem i lagtexten, > men jag haller med om att "Arvingarna" kan vara tillfyllest, aven om det > later litet fanigt. OK, "Tronfoeljarna" kanske inte laater som en TV-serie...;) Morgan// -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 12:15:05 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA09587 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:15:02 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:13:02 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA23844; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:14:53 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403081114.AA23844@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Haermoenstring !!! To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 12:14:52 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO 940308 Kista, Sverige Till Nordmarks kaempar Fraan Cedric i Fjathundrialand (via HM Morgan, som ursaektar sig foer eventuella felstavningar ;)) Helgen 19-20 Mars aeger en stor haermoenstring rum i Fjat- hundrialand. Samtliga kaempar aer vaelkommna. Foer ytterligare information, kontakta : Cedric (Fredrik Pettersson) tel. 0221-185 96 Haelsningar Cedric (via Morgan) -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 16:09:43 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA12030 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 16:09:11 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:07:10 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA25270; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 16:08:59 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403081508.AA25270@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Three resignations (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 16:08:59 MET Cc: 100040.134@compuserve.com (Mary Hickey) Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO > > From: keithc@nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (Keith Cartmell) > Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > Subject: Three resignations > Date: 8 Mar 1994 09:39:44 -0500 > Lines: 23 > Sender: news@athena.mit.edu > To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu > > The third Director to resign is Karen Hatten. Until two more directors > are selected, the Board can do nothing. I spoke with AJ this evening > (Monday) and he mentioned the Board is going to consult with the Crowns > about selecting new Directors. I'm a little confused by his position on > the motion he seconded to withdraw the membership to participate rule, > once I understand it better, I'll post. He did indicate they are > willing to open up for discussion the issues that have been troubling > people, via greatly expanded committee's. Specifically, this seems to > include a director recruitment and recommendation group, Kingdom > advisory group, a group to study and suggest ways of opening > communication, ways of decentralizing, and several others that don't > seem to come to mind right at the moment. To be fair, I did advise > against the 13 member Board, but then that's been my position since well > before the Estrella compact. I did advise him that the populace is > still upset, and there are alot of good ideas that the Board needs to > consider. Some of them are not so good, but that's the way the system > works. He indicated they would probably try to get a committee to > examine the suggestions for reform up and running. The Board is going > to try to get a news update out to the Crowns pretty quick here, and let > them pass the word on to their populace. > posted to sca west, steps, Rialto, feel free to re post. > Ragnar+ -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag APD-I: Shade Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 16:27:04 1994 Received: from decnet.sunet.se (decnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA12227 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 16:27:02 +0100 From: bronia@ar.sunet.se Received: from AR.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by decnet.sunet.se (5.57/2.01) id AA22246; Tue, 8 Mar 94 16:24:28 +0100 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 16:24:27 +0100 Message-Id: <9403081524.AA22246@decnet.sunet.se> To: "Nordmark@ludd.luth.se"@kth.sunet.se Subject: Elffin + Titlar Status: RO Hej alla, Bronia haer. Saavitt jag vet aer Elffin hos Moe (100115.2152@Compuserve.com) eftersom jag fick mail fraan honom daerifraan i fredags. Ang. titlar saa har jag hoert "Markgreve" ocksaa och jag har foer mig att det aer en hoegre titel aen vanlig greve. Vet inte vart jag har faatt detta ifraan. Ha det saa bra! Haelsn. Bronia From nordmark-request Tue Mar 8 18:51:33 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA13623 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 18:51:31 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA22943 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Tue, 8 Mar 1994 18:49:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 18:45:52 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: Titlar - Rabbes sammanfattning To: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <543608070394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO On Mon, 7 Mar 1994 mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net wrote: > SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan >=20 > - Rabbes kommentar till UlfRs svar till Rabbe.... >=20 > Rabbe skrev: > >(Den du... Tanist ar ocksa ratt syntetiskt) >=20 > Vi har ju dock Macbeth, thane of Glamis and Cawdor, s} helt otidsenligt= =3D20 > kan den v{l inte vara. Men p} svenska...? >=20 > - Den forklaring jag har fatt i SCA till 'Tanist' ar att det ar nan s= lags=20 > Irisk titel, medan 'Tanista' ar en helt igenom SCAitisk femininiserin= g.=20 > Varfor dessa titlar skulle passa just en tronfoljare till ett=20 > furstendome ar holjt i morker. =20 Enligt en Irisk-Englesk ordbok s} {r t=E1naiste "second, next in order or= =20 succession". Femininumformen {r nog helt fiktiv. Ql nog anger samma=20 ordbok fast }t andra h}llet att det engelska ordet "tanist" skall=20 |vers{ttas som "t=E1naiste".=20 >=20 > /UlfR >=20 > - Rabbe >=20 /Ulfr ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 09:04:08 1994 Received: from ns.tip.net (ns.tip.net [192.36.73.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA22032 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:04:03 +0100 From: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net Received: by ns.tip.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA03853; Wed, 9 Mar 94 08:03:25 GMT X400-Received: by mta gw.x400.tip.net in /PRMD=TIPNET/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:53:34 +0100 X400-Received: by /ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:04:18 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:01:38 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=MTAHKV/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:59:46 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/; Relayed; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:09:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:09:22 +0100 X400-Originator: mlfrja@ml.hkv.semil.400net.tip.net X400-Recipients: nordmark@ludd.luth.se X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=SEMIL/ADMD=400NET/C=SE/;0002100000002680000002] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 220909090394 Message-Id: <220909090394*/S=mlfrja/OU=ml/O=hkv/PRMD=semil/ADMD=400net/C=se/@MHS> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Re: Elffin + Titlar Status: RO SVAR FRAN:Frelin Jan - Rabbe svarar B Hej alla, Bronia haer. Ang. titlar saa har jag hoert "Markgreve" ocksaa och jag har foer mig att det aer en hoegre titel aen vanlig greve. Vet inte vart jag har faatt detta ifraan. - Stammer, Markgreve = Markis, (eller Marquise kanske...) Ha det saa bra! Haelsn. Bronia From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 14:59:43 1994 Received: from madonna.Kemi.UU.SE (madonna.kemi.uu.se [130.238.66.25]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA26000 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 14:59:41 +0100 From: frithiof@oorgan.dnet Received: from OORGAN.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by madonna.Kemi.UU.SE with SMTP id AA22553 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:04:08 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:04:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199403091404.AA22553@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Cc: FRITHIOF@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE Subject: BoD... Status: RO Hejhej h|gen, det {r Frithiof som hackar. I g}r (8 Mars 1994) fick jag brevet fr}n BoD! Har n}n annan f}tt sitt? Brevet {r daterat January 27, 1994 och postst{mplat MAR-3'94. De verkar inta he haft s} br}ttom till brevl}dan... men } andra sidan blev det ju s} m}nga brev, 23.000 stycken, som skulle postas. Portot bidrar v{l till budgetunderskottet. Jag noterade ocks} att nu har det avg}tt s} m}nga Jag noterade ocks} att nu har det avg}tt s} m}nga fr}n styrelsen att den inte l{ngre {r beslutsm{ssig, och eftersom styrelsen sj{lv skall besluta om nya medlemmar s} har vi v{l h{r en fin "moment 22"situation. Eller har jag missat n}got? Frithiof From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 15:57:16 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26881 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:57:15 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA18190 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:57:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:57:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199403091457.AA18190@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se, FRITHIOF@madonna.kemi.uu.se In-Reply-To: frithiof@oorgan.dnet's message of Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:04:07 +0100 <199403091404.AA22553@madonna.Kemi.UU.SE> Subject: BoD... From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Jag fick just mitt medlemskort f|r 94 med tillh|rande info, d{remot inget annat BoD-brev. Dom har dessutom skickat mig ett vitt kort och p}st}r att min waiver var ofullst{ndigt ifylld -- detta trots att jag kletat namnteckningar |ver allt. Maximal irritation! William From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 16:13:30 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA27088 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:13:29 +0100 Received: from astol.astro.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA18948; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:15:26 +0100 Message-Id: <9403091515.AA18948@nomina.lu.se> Received: from nastol.astro.lu.se by astol.astro.lu.se with SMTP(16.6/16.2) id AA12559; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:13:20 +0100 Received: by nastol.astro.lu.se(1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA20656; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:13:26 +0100 From: Ralph Snel Subject: waivers? To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:13:26 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Status: RO Clodwik here, William wrote: "Jag fick just mitt medlemskort f|r 94 med tillh|rande info, d{remot inget annat BoD-brev. Dom har dessutom skickat mig ett vitt kort och p}st}r att min waiver var ofullst{ndigt ifylld -- detta trots att jag kletat namnteckningar |ver allt. Maximal irritation!" I was just wondering: do the waivers have any legal value in Sweden (and other European countries)? I vaguely remember ancient discussions about the same subject in Holland and I think that the document is not legal because it was not in the native language of the person who signed it, so in court the one who signed a waiver could just say that he didn't understand what the waiver said. Besides that, does the waiver-idea work at all here in Europe? people are not that fast to sue others as they are in the US. I've never had any problems with my missing waivers, but that's probably due to the fact that the people responsible for the waivers were usually non-existant (Drachenwald-level). From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 16:18:43 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA27193 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:18:42 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA29284 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:18:37 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403091518.QAA29284@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: BoD... To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:18:36 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Frithiof skriver: > I g}r (8 Mars 1994) fick jag brevet fr}n BoD! Har n}n annan f}tt sitt? Ja. Jag fick ocks} mitt ig}r, {ven det postst{mplat "MAR-3'94". /Peder From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 16:21:41 1994 Received: from mail.swip.net (mail.swip.net [192.71.220.11]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA27244 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:21:40 +0100 Received: from spritz.salcom.se by mail.swip.net (8.6.4/2.01) id QAA04321; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:21:37 +0100 Received: from blitz.salcom.se by spritz.salcom.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13428; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:22:38 +0100 Received: by blitz.salcom.se (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for @spritz.salcom.se:nordmark@ludd.luth.se id AA27193; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:20:44 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:20:44 +0100 From: scpefo@blitz.salcom.se (Peter Forsberg) Message-Id: <9403091520.AA27193@blitz.salcom.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Kr|nik|rs{mbetet i Nordmark Status: RO Hej, allihopa! Jag m}ste tyv{rr meddela att jag best{mt mig f|r att l{mna posten som Nordmarks Kr|nik|r med omedelbar verkan, d v s s} snart mars-numret {r iv{gs{nt. Sk{len till mitt beslut {r att jag k{nner att jag inte l{ngre kan hantera uppgiften p} ett s{tt som {r tillfredst{llande b}de f|r mig och tidningens prenumeranter. D{rf|r ber jag er att hj{lpa mig att s} snart som m|jligt finna en ers{ttare som kan ta |ver {mbetet, s} att tidningen forts{tter komma ut i vanlig ordning. H{lsningar /Tidrik From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 16:25:07 1994 Received: from world.celsiustech.se (world.celsiustech.se [139.58.1.3]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA27295 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:25:05 +0100 Received: from localhost (leeu@localhost) by world.celsiustech.se (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA29334 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:25:00 +0100 From: Leif Euren Message-Id: <199403091525.QAA29334@world.celsiustech.se> Subject: Re: waivers? To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (Nordmark Mailing List (Prath|gen)) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:24:57 MET DST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Status: RO Klodvik undrar: > ... do the waivers have any legal value in Sweden (and other > European countries)? : > Besides that, does the waiver-idea work at all here in Europe? > people are not that fast to sue others as they are in the US. I Sverige (liksom i de flesta l{nder) _kan_ man inte skriva bort sina r{ttigheter. D{rf|r har SCA's waiver mycket liten funktion h{r. Det finns de som tror att den inte har n}gon egentlig betydelse i USA heller, men det har inte kollats. /Peder From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 16:41:12 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA27489 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 16:41:11 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA19788; Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:43:08 +0100 Subject: Re: BoD... To: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 16:41:17 +0100 Message-Id: <940309.164117.41741@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO >Frithiof skriver: >> I g}r (8 Mars 1994) fick jag brevet fr}n BoD! >Har n}n annan f}tt sitt? > >Ja. Jag fick ocks} mitt ig}r, {ven det >postst{mplat "MAR-3'94". > > /Peder Samma h{r. / Catrin Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Wed Mar 9 20:27:21 1994 Received: from ki.se (ki.se [130.237.207.77]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA00468 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 20:27:20 +0100 Received: by ki.se id AA16273 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for Nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Wed, 9 Mar 1994 20:27:04 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 20:26:20 +0200 (METDST) From: Par Leijonhufvud k1h Subject: Re: BoD... Cc: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: <940309.164117.41741@macpost.lu.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Status: RO On Wed, 9 Mar 1994 Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se wrote: >=20 > >Frithiof skriver: > >> I g}r (8 Mars 1994) fick jag brevet fr}n BoD!=20 > >Har n}n annan f}tt sitt? > > > >Ja. Jag fick ocks} mitt ig}r, {ven det=20 > >postst{mplat "MAR-3'94". > > > >=09/Peder >=20 > Samma h{r. / Catrin >=20 > Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se >=20 O ja me. /UlfR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: P{r K.G. Leijonhufvud =A6 Science is, at best, Email: Par.Leijonhufvud@k1h.ki.se =A6 20-20 hindsight. =20 Voice: +46-(0)8-758 8459 =A6 -Robert M. Pirsig From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 09:21:52 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA10526 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:21:50 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:19:42 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA17995; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:21:34 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403100821.AA17995@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) Bearkiller on Board (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 9:21:34 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Path: hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!swrinde!gatech!birdie-blue.cis.pitt.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ds4p+ From: David Schroeder Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Bearkiller on Board Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:21:00 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po2.andrew.cmu.edu Hi folks -- I just got off the phone after a pleasant conversation with Duke John the Bearkiller of Meridies, who indicated that I was welcome to pass along to the net the fact that he'd been offered and accepted a 5-meeting appointment to the SCA, Inc.'s Board of Directors. (I'm assuming this means five of the regular quarterly meetings, not counting special meetings.) Duke John indicated that he believes the Board does need to be accountable to the rest of the Society, but that he feels we need to take our time and listen to lots of input before putting any formal procedures for accountability in place. He asks that people refrain from contacting him with questions about what the Board's done for a while since it will take him a week or so to get the files. He welcomes letters and input right away at the address below. Duke John the Bearkiller c/o John Fulton 2494 Hollins Memphis, TN 38112 (901) 452-9881 (Before 10:00 p.m.) Also, he has a young baby and would appreciate no calls after 10:00 p.m. He requested that people calling be as polite and civil as possible to his lady if she ends up taking a call. Duke John has friends who are passing him information from the Rialto, so he is listening to some of what passes here. I have tried my best to be a faithful scribe but any errors in the text above are mine, not Bearkiller's. My best to all who read these words -- Bertram -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 09:22:14 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA10532 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:22:10 +0100 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:20:03 GMT Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18002; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:21:53 +0100 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403100821.AA18002@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: (fwd) RE: Rumor control (fwd) To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)), jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie (Drachenwald Mailing List) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 9:21:53 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Path: hpscit.sc.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!INTERNET!news-mail-gateway From: flieg@garnet.BErkeley.EDU (Flieg Hollander) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: RE: Rumor control Date: 9 Mar 1994 17:14:19 -0500 Organization: The Internet Lines: 36 Sender: news@athena.mit.edu Message-ID: <50768.flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: bloom-beacon.mit.edu To: e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu Frederick of Holland to the readers of antir, scawest, sca-reform and e5 mailing groups and to the readers of the Rialto (submitted via the Digestifier). Please do not crosspost from any of these groups to another. You may crosspost to any other group. I wrote to Randall Tatro on a rumor that the board had met, selected two people and both were from the East. I received this reply. > Fredrick, > It never fails to amaze me how bad rumors get. The board met last night > and selected three new prospective members. None of those people was > from the East. Two were former board members. We selected former > members because for the shortest seat the person will need to hit the > ground running in order to be efective. We did not go to seven because > the seventh would have to be replaced in april and that is worse than > useless. We will release the names as soon as they except and are ready > to deal with people bending there ear on things. Please pass along a > request to give the new members a few days to assimilate the information > pertaining to current issues before inundating them wiht phone calls. > They will need the time to come up to speed. Hopes that this helps answer > some questions. > Randall > Based on this reply, I would assume that the Board will at least select a seventh member at the April meeting. This does not address the Board's response to the Estrella Document, nor did I ask for such a response. This is for your information. Share and enjoy. -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 20:34:20 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA20248 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 20:34:17 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2507; Thu, 10 Mar 94 14:34:14 EST Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 3321; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:35:48 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 10 Mar 94 14:35:46 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA23683; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:34:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:34:01 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403101934.AA23683@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Cc: mittle@watson.ibm.com Subject: The recent past and the near future Comments: Please forward to all SCA bboards and mailing lists Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO Greetings from Arval! As most of you know, three directors resigned last week: the chairman, Tir Moran, and Victoria Teasdale and Karen Hatten. Three directors were named at the special meeting earlier this week to replace them: Duke John Bearkiller (John Fulton, Meridies), Duchess Ysabeau Cameron (Elizabeth Johnson, Atlantia, past chairman of the Board), and Count Cire of Greymoor (Eric Mohr, An Tir, past director). They have all expressed interest in hearing from the populace; their addresses are given at the end of this note. I expect that everyone hopes that the past week's resignation and replacements mark the beginning of the end of the present crisis; that is certainly my sincere hope. However, I must point out that nothing has changed. The Board is still not accountable to the membership nor representative of its interests. The Estrella documents signed by the Crowns are unanswered. The Board made no special effort to consult the Crowns or the general populace in appointing new directors; indeed, it is hard not to see their rush to fill these vacancies and their choice of past directors rather than new nominees to provide new perspectives as a repeat of the mistakes of 22 January. All the offending policies stand: compulsory membership, pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the restriction of Board minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the SCAM, renting the mailing list, etc. We all hope that the new directors will heed the protest that has brought them to office and move quickly and decisively to establish a new relationship between the corporation and the Society it exists to serve, but we must make it absolutely clear that we require real change. Therefore, I ask you each to sit down today and write another letter to the Board, and to send a copy to your Crown. Continue to collect signautres for impeachment and if you have some signatures already, please send them _today_ to one of the addresses on the petition form; the petition is our best means to demonstrate widespread support for real change. Even though it is partly out-of-date, a successful petition drive will send a message that cannot be mistaken. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Replacement directors: Elizabeth Johnson, 7875 Wintercross Lane, Springfield, VA 22152 Eric Mohr, PO Box 59821, Renton, WA 98058 John Fulton, 2494 Hollins, Memphis, TN 38112 Previous directors: A. J. Riviezzo, 2323 South Troy #210-D, Aurora, CO 80014 L. Jane Richards, 2925 South 7th Street West, Missoula, MT 59801-2021 Randall Tatro, 164 Everest Road, Milton, VT 05468 Please remember to send a copy of any letter to a director to the corporate office: The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. Renee Signorotti, Corporate Secretary P.O. Box 360743 Milpitas, CA 95036-0743 From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 21:16:25 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA20861 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 21:16:12 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3259; Thu, 10 Mar 94 15:16:03 EST Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 4239; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:17:43 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 10 Mar 94 15:17:42 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA24575; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:15:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:15:56 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403102015.AA24575@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO I am informed that Liz Johnson's address had a typo: Elizabeth Johnson, 7875 Wintercress Lane Springfield, VA 22152 ^^^^^ I had wrote "Wintercross". Sorry. Arval. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 22:29:36 1994 Received: from earth.willamette.edu (root@earth.willamette.edu [158.104.1.1]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA21815 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 22:29:32 +0100 Received: from minerva.Willamette.EDU (minerva.willamette.edu [158.104.64.1]) by earth.willamette.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA16789; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:27:38 -0800 Received: from localhost (cclaus@localhost) by minerva.Willamette.EDU (8.6.5/8.6.4) id NAA15345; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:23:49 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:23:49 -0800 (PST) From: Conrad Claus Subject: Re: The recent past and the near future To: Joshua Mittleman cc: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <9403101934.AA23683@blinn.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Thu, 10 Mar 1994, Joshua Mittleman wrote: > of the mistakes of 22 January. All the offending policies stand: > compulsory membership, pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the > restriction of Board minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the > SCAM, renting the mailing list, etc. We all hope that the new directors ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Whoa there!!! Could someone out there please tell me what this refers to? Does this mean the board will be releasing my name and address to mail order firms and such for a price? Or do I misunderstand? Conrad From nordmark-request Thu Mar 10 22:38:23 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA21918 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 22:38:20 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4809; Thu, 10 Mar 94 16:38:13 EST Received: from YKTVMV by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 7927; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:38:10 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmv.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 10 Mar 94 16:38:08 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA18801; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:38:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:38:05 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403102138.AA18801@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, cclaus@willamette.edu In-Reply-To: Conrad Claus's message of Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: The recent past and the near future Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO > > of the mistakes of 22 January. All the offending policies stand: > > compulsory membership, pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the > > restriction of Board minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the > > SCAM, renting the mailing list, etc. We all hope that the new directors > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Whoa there!!! Could someone out there please tell me what this refers > to? Does this mean the board will be releasing my name and address to > mail order firms and such for a price? Or do I misunderstand? The Board has rented (not sold) the mailing list to a credit card company as a one-time deal. The mailing list will, according to unconfirmed report, be passed to a third party which will also be given the material from the credit card company to be mailed. It will handle the mailing and then destroy its records of the mailing list. I do not know how carefully the corporation has guarded against this third party copying the mailing list. Arval. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 16:02:56 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA03194 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 16:02:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199403111502.QAA03194@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 11 Mar 94 14:48:27 GMT To: cclaus@willamette.edu (Conrad Claus), mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Cc: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Fri Mar 11 14:48:27 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Re: The recent past and the near future In-Reply-To: your message of Thu Mar 10 13:38:48 -0800 1994 Content-Type: text Status: RO Thursday, Arval wrote to all, in a message titled "The recent past and the near future" that: >> I must point out that nothing has changed. The Board is still >> not accountable to the membership nor representative of its >> interests. The Estrella documents signed by the Crowns are >> unanswered. The Board made no special effort to consult the >> Crowns or the general populace in appointing new directors; >> indeed, it is hard not to see their rush to fill these >> vacancies and their choice of past directors rather than new >> nominees to provide new perspectives as a repeat of the >> mistakes of 22 January. With due respect, there was nothing else under either the SCA, Inc., documents nor the laws of California that the Directors could have done! With an undersized Board, they could take no action, including consideration of the "Estrella Proclamation." They could not either alter the By-Laws to provide for a different method of selecting Directors, nor could they accept persons upon whom the advisory membership had not been offered the opportunity to comment. Any person who had not been a Director or was not on one of the list of nominees would lack that possibility. At least there has been the possibility, now or in the past, of commenting upon the persons selected. Additionally, a corporation cannot continue without a President or Treasurer, as the SCA, Inc., had been forced to do by the resignations. These are the two statutorily-required offices, and it could be construed as malfeasance to allow them to continue unfilled. >> All the offending policies stand: compulsory membership, >> pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the restriction of Board >> minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the SCAM, >> renting the mailing list, etc. Yes, but some have been stayed pending the April Board Meeting, and the more egregious ones have not been implemented. >> I ask you each to sit down today and write another letter to >> the Board, and to send a copy to your Crown. Continue to >> collect signautres for impeachment and if you have some >> signatures already, please send them _today_ to one of the >> addresses on the petition form; the petition is our best means >> to demonstrate widespread support for real change. Even though >> it is partly out-of-date, a successful petition drive will send >> a message that cannot be mistaken. In other words, don't give the new Directors time to get up to speed and determine what steps to take. It seems almost as if Arval is asking that we tell the new Directors, "because you are a Director and you were chosen by the previous Directors, you are de facto a bad person." What other interpretation can they make of the fact that the impeachment drive continues? It is really not fair, IMHO. It is as if those of us asking for change were told, "you are just a hotheaded radical who doesn't care that the Society is not longer a backyard club, and you need to get your head out of the 1960's." I would preach a more moderate line: Let's give them a chance. If we put unnecessary pressure on the Board, they could decide that the advisory membership is so hostile and unworkable, there is no hope of finding a solution to the problem. They may very well say, "the plans are in place, tough" -- and I really don't want to see that. If we are really committed to mending the Society, we should let the new Directors have a chance to get up to speed. Continuing with the impeachment petitions at this time, or an immediate barrage of demanding letters, could hurt the cause of change. Sometimes when you put enough of a siege on people, they prefer to all die and destroy the culture than to capitulate. Let this not happen here. ---= Morgan Cely Cain From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 16:09:44 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA03308 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 16:09:41 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2985; Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:09:31 EST Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 2666; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:10:51 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:10:49 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA21984; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:09:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:09:03 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403111509.AA21984@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: cclaus@willamette.edu, hablutzelml@attmail.com Cc: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Subject: What the Board could and couldn't do Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO Greetings from Arval! Morgan Cain wrote: > With due respect, there was nothing else under either the SCA, Inc., > documents nor the laws of California that the Directors could have done! > With an undersized Board, they could take no action, including > consideration of the "Estrella Proclamation." They could not either > alter the By-Laws to provide for a different method of selecting > Directors, nor could they accept persons upon whom the advisory > membership had not been offered the opportunity to comment. Any person > who had not been a Director or was not on one of the list of nominees > would lack that possibility. You are wrong. The procedures for choosing directors are in Board policy, not the bylaws and not Corpora. Policy is not binding and can be ignored under special circumstances (which these arguably are). In any case, there is nothing that required them to act in haste. Waiting two or three weeks to get adequate input from the membership or its representatives would clearly have been an act of wisdom. > In other words, don't give the new Directors time to get up to speed and > determine what steps to take. It seems almost as if Arval is asking > that we tell the new Directors, "because you are a Director and you were > chosen by the previous Directors, you are de facto a bad person." Nonsense. The problems are not and never were related to the particular people who sit on the Board and no one has suggested otherwise; they are fundamental problems with the corporate structure. In any case, as you may not have noticed in my posting: All three of the new directors explicitly requested input from the populace. In calling for letter-writing, I am merely asking people to heed their requests. Continuing the impeachment drive, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the new directors since they are not named on the petitions; it is directed at the old directors who got us into this mess. Arval. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 17:19:06 1994 Received: from math.harvard.edu (math.harvard.edu [128.103.28.10]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA04572 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 17:19:03 +0100 From: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Message-Id: <9403111617.AA05101@math.harvard.edu> Subject: Re: The recent past and the near future To: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 11:17:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: cclaus@willamette.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: <9403111502.AA02598@MIT.EDU> from "Margo Lynn Hablutzel" at Mar 11, 94 02:48:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6286 Status: RO With due respect, there was nothing else under either the SCA, Inc., documents nor the laws of California that the Directors could have done! With an undersized Board, they could take no action, including consideration of the "Estrella Proclamation." They could not either alter the By-Laws to provide for a different method of selecting Directors, nor could they accept persons upon whom the advisory membership had not been offered the opportunity to comment. Any person who had not been a Director or was not on one of the list of nominees would lack that possibility. At least there has been the possibility, now or in the past, of commenting upon the persons selected. The Bylaws restrict the domain of people who can be selected to paid participants, over 21, etcetera. The methodology for appointment and consideration is a policy. As I wrote on the Rialto, one can violate a policy with no legal ramifications. Now, of course, one shouldn't violate this policy without great need. However, I believe that this is the first time the Board was below quorum, the first time 3 directors resigned all at once, and the Society is in arguably one of the deepest crisis it has been in in years. Certainly, the Board could have loosened up enough to listen to the Crowns. They certainly could have contacted all the Crowns before the meeting. And certainly, they could have waited more than the minimum 72 hours, giving the membership some time to respond. Instead, they gave no notice at all, and avoided consultation with the Crowns. Additionally, a corporation cannot continue without a President or Treasurer, as the SCA, Inc., had been forced to do by the resignations. These are the two statutorily-required offices, and it could be construed as malfeasance to allow them to continue unfilled. As we all are perfectly aware, I am not an attorney. But it seems to me that malfeasance would constitute failure to appoint before the next regularly scheduled meeting, or to fail to appoint new officers before the conclusion of the next meeting of the quorum. As it is right now, we have no Treasurer or President, yet, because there has been no meeting of the new quorum of Directors. I think, perhaps, you used the term with a little too much freedom. Malfeasance means violation of law, willfully, according to my online dictionary. It isn't Black's Legal Dictionary, but it is the best I have. Actually, though, you have pointed out an excellent critique of the reorganization of the Board. We used to have a separation between the officers and Directors. Now, they are the same thing. So, whenever we lose enough Directors to be below quorum, we have probably lost required officers as well, and cannot appoint them. It is a structural problem, caused by the consolidation of power over the Society. Perhaps that consolidation was malfeasance: I don't know. Arval >> All the offending policies stand: compulsory membership, >> pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the restriction of Board >> minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the SCAM, >> renting the mailing list, etc. Yes, but some have been stayed pending the April Board Meeting, and the more egregious ones have not been implemented. Absolutely true. However, this misses the key point: the Board of Directors met on March 2nd. They made no attempt to fix even the simplest of problems caused by the January 22nd meeting. The sole attempt to address the most minor point was postponed until April. And, we have no idea if Randall's proposal was substantive in its change, or merely decorative. It's mere existence really doesn't change anything one way or the other. It's postponement speaks volumes. In other words, don't give the new Directors time to get up to speed and determine what steps to take. It seems almost as if Arval is asking that we tell the new Directors, "because you are a Director and you were chosen by the previous Directors, you are de facto a bad person." What other interpretation can they make of the fact that the impeachment drive continues? It is really not fair, IMHO. It is as if those of us asking for change were told, "you are just a hotheaded radical who doesn't care that the Society is not longer a backyard club, and you need to get your head out of the 1960's." This isn't fair of *you*. The current Directors are ignoring the letters we send. Perhaps the new Directors will be more open, since (except for one) they have no vested interest in defending the decisions of January 1992. There is nothing radical or unfair about saying: the Directors who resigned have received feedback from the membership. Let's make sure the new Directors get the same feedback. I would preach a more moderate line: Let's give them a chance. If we put unnecessary pressure on the Board, they could decide that the advisory membership is so hostile and unworkable, there is no hope of finding a solution to the problem. They may very well say, "the plans are in place, tough" -- and I really don't want to see that. I want to give them a chance, but only after they are fully informed. Fully informed means hearing from the membership. Also, if the Board finds the participants to truly be hostile and hard to deal with, one would hope they would realize that without participants, they are King Log and King Stork. If we are really committed to mending the Society, we should let the new Directors have a chance to get up to speed. Continuing with the impeachment petitions at this time, or an immediate barrage of demanding letters, could hurt the cause of change. Sometimes when you put enough of a siege on people, they prefer to all die and destroy the culture than to capitulate. Let this not happen here. I find the opposite to be true. For the Directors cannot destroy our culture: we would take it someplace else. I don't know about you, but I intend to meet with, and learn from the members of my local group, whether there exists an SCA, Inc. or not. We still have the task of convincing the Old Directors, and the new task of educating the New Directors before their positions harden. Tibor From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 18:10:42 1994 Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA05261 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 18:10:27 +0100 Received: from radisys.radisys.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA05693 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Fri, 11 Mar 94 12:06:44 -0500 Received: from msmail.radisys.com by radisys.radisys.com id aa06035; 11 Mar 94 9:06 PST Received: by msmail.radisys.com with Microsoft Mail id <2D80A42E@msmail.radisys.com>; Fri, 11 Mar 94 09:02:38 PST From: Jim Pilcher To: cclaus , hablutzelml , Joshua Mittleman Cc: antir , calontir , carolingia , nordmark , northshield , sca-west Subject: RE: What the Board could and couldn't do Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 09:01:00 PST Message-Id: <2D80A42E@msmail.radisys.com> Encoding: 8 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Just wanted to mention in passing that the board is behaving like anyone who discovers that several thousand people want to ruin their day, all at the same time--which is to say, they are in something of a dither. Three have panicked and resigned; the rest are obviously open to anything that will get the 'supportership' off their backs. They have been subjected to a form of stress that will break most people. There actions are not going to be deliberate and well thought out until the stress is off of them for a while. From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 19:45:37 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA11226 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 19:45:22 +0100 Message-Id: <199403111845.TAA11226@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 11 Mar 94 18:43:02 GMT To: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Cc: cclaus@willamette.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Fri Mar 11 18:43:02 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Re: The recent past and the near future In-Reply-To: your message <9403111617.AA05101@math.harvard.edu> of Fri Mar 11 11:17:47 -0500 1994 Content-Type: text Status: RO cumstances (which these arguably are). Ah! So having argued for all of these weeks that we are upset that they disregarded past practice and procedure, you are now insisting that they should have disregarded past practice and procedure? Just because it is not written in Corpora does not mean that it can be ignored, any more than Kingdom laws can be ignored. A >> In any case, there is nothing that required them to A >> act in haste. Waiting two or three weeks to get A >> adequate input from the membership or its A >> representatives would clearly have been an act of A >> wisdom. From a corporate law standpoint, this is unacceptable. You insist that a corporation go without a President and Treasurer for several weeks, immediately before a Board meeting and immediately before the deadline for filing the corporate tax and financial papers. You insist that the corporation go without a full Board in most of the last few weeks before a Board meeting -- later in your posting complaining that they have not addressed the "Estrella Proclamation," which under the By-Laws THEY COULD NOT DO with only three Board members. A >> In any case, as you may not have noticed in my A >> posting: All three of the new directors explicitly A >> requested input from the populace. In calling for A >> letter-writing, I am merely asking people to heed A >> their requests. I did notice that, but it appeared to be inextricably intertwined with the impeachment petitions. I wanted it clear that you are not trying to automatically impeach the new Board members. Which leads to: A >> Continuing the impeachment drive, on the other hand, A >> has nothing to do with the new directors since they A >> are not named on the petitions; it is directed at A >> the old directors who got us into this mess. Given that the remaining ones have indicated that they are willing to work on the situation, as have the three new ones, wouldn't be more courteous to wait on the impeachment petitions until after the Board meeting? Your call to continue appears to be asking that we not give the Board members the chance to work, and that's not fair. ============================================ Tibor also responded to my posting, and for convenience I will respond to his words here: T >> The methodology for appointment and consideration T >> is a policy. As I wrote on the Rialto, one can T >> violate a policy with no legal ramifications. While it is true that a policy can be violated or ignored, do we really want to encourage this type of action? There has been enough protest of the Board's actions in circumventing the By-Laws and Corpora -- where are we to draw the line? I think that if we are going to require the Board to follow What Is Written, we cannot make exceptions to suit our whims and convenience. You gave good arguments for the exceptional nature of the circumstances, but didn't the Board do the same to justify the precipitous decisions of January 22nd? T >> They certainly could have contacted all the Crowns T >> before the meeting. And certainly, they could have T >> waited more than the minimum 72 hours, giving the T >> membership some time to respond. Instead, they gave T >> no notice at all, and avoided consultation with the T >> Crowns. My understanding is that they tried to Consult with the Royalty, but felt time pressure to make a decision, so may not have spoken to all. The Board members did not "avoid consultation with the Crowns." And I certainly had time to get my opinions to the Board members, so I disagree with the last portion of your argument. We DID know before the meeting that it would occur, and if you wanted strongly enough to be heard, you could be. As for waiting more than 72 hours, see what I wrote about to Arval about danger to the Corporation. T >> As we all are perfectly aware, I am not an attorney. T >> But it seems to me that malfeasance would constitute T >> failure to appoint before the next regularly T >> scheduled meeting, or to fail to appoint new T >> officers before the conclusion of the next meeting T >> of the quorum. As it is right now, we have no T >> Treasurer or President, yet, because there has been T >> no meeting of the new quorum of Directors. I think, T >> perhaps, you used the term with a little too much T >> freedom. Not from the standpoint of Corporate law. I am not going to upload a treatise, only to point out that your possible timelines could lead the SCA, Inc., into deep trouble. If we are trying to work together to maintain the Society, forcing the corporation into receivership is not the way to proceed. T >> Actually, though, you have pointed out an excellent T >> critique of the reorganization of the Board. We T >> used to have a separation between the officers and T >> Directors. Now, they are the same thing. So, T >> whenever we lose enough Directors to be below T >> quorum, we have probably lost required officers as T >> well, and cannot appoint them. It is a structural T >> problem, caused by the consolidation of power over T >> the Society. Perhaps that consolidation was T >> malfeasance: I don't know. Either do I, and I'm not sure I want to analyze this on top of everything else. It is one of the things that I think could be addressed in a possible restructuring of the SCA, Inc., resulting from talks between the Board and representatives of the advisory membership. If nothing else, I think that the burden of being Officer and Director is too much for any person to handle in a corporation of this size. [NOTE: That was a PERSONAL opinion, not a LEGAL opinion!] T >> The Board of Directors met on March 2nd. They made T >> no attempt to fix even the simplest of problems T >> caused by the January 22nd meeting. The sole T >> attempt to address the most minor point was T >> postponed until April. And, we have no idea if T >> Randall's proposal was substantive in its change, T >> or merely decorative. It's mere existence really T >> doesn't change anything one way or the other. It's T >> postponement speaks volumes. Except that we have a very different Board now, addressing the issue. I think that the fact it was postponed is actually good; my understanding is that when it appeared the motion could not succeed, it was tabled for further action at the April Board Meeting. Had they acted, the motion would have failed, and we'd be even further behind. Now there is a change that the actions will be reconsidered. T >> There is nothing radical or unfair about saying: the T >> Directors who resigned have received feedback from T >> the membership. Let's make sure the new Directors T >> get the same feedback. I agree, absolutely. My concern was based on the appearance that Arval was tying comment and letter-writing to the impeachment petitions, which I feel should NOT be done. Comment is essential; the impeachment petitions, IMHO, should be stayed so that it does not appear that the advisory membership is not willing to give the Board a chance. T >> I want to give them a chance, but only after they T >> are fully informed. Fully informed means hearing T >> from the membership. I do agree with this, 100%. Just give them time to read what had been circulated previously, before they are flooded with new letters! T >> The Directors cannot destroy our culture: we would T >> take it someplace else. I don't know about you, but T >> I intend to meet with, and learn from the members T >> of my local group, whether there exists an SCA, Inc. T >> or not. This of course can continue, but what about people like me who travel widely within the Society? The Kingdoms could end up with less continuity than they have now, and my friends in other Kingdoms and I would have much less common ground. We could end up with, instead of one Society, thirteen or fifteen or fifty-five little medieval re-enactment groups, each with its own rules and practices. I, for one, am NOT comfortable with that idea; I would miss too many friends. ---= Morgan Cely Cain From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 21:16:35 1994 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA19052 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 21:16:03 +0100 Received: from uucp2.uu.net by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AAwguq15768; Fri, 11 Mar 94 15:15:06 -0500 Received: from sli.UUCP by uucp2.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 15:15:11 -0500 Received: by ravel.sli.com (5.61/smail2.5/04-29-92) id AA07581; Fri, 11 Mar 94 19:59:42 GMT Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 19:59:42 GMT From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Message-Id: <9403111959.AA07581@ravel.sli.com> To: hablutzelml@attmail.com Cc: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu, cclaus@willamette.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: Margo Lynn Hablutzel 's message of 11 Mar 94 18:43:02 GMT <9403111845.AA10754@bloom-beacon.mit.edu> Subject: The recent past and the near future Status: RO Quoth Morgan Cely Cain: >This of course can continue, but what about people like me who >travel widely within the Society? The Kingdoms could end up >with less continuity than they have now, and my friends in >other Kingdoms and I would have much less common ground. We >could end up with, instead of one Society, thirteen or fifteen >or fifty-five little medieval re-enactment groups, each with >its own rules and practices. I, for one, am NOT comfortable >with that idea; I would miss too many friends. Why do you think you would miss even a few, let alone many, friends? These groups aren't nations: there are no border guards. Even if fifty-five groups were to arise (unlikely, I think), why do you assume their memberships would be exclusive? And, even if exclusive, you could still attend every group's events. I hope what you have in common with your friends is something over and above a mere agreement of SCA regulations. Aside from this, not only the Kingdoms, but the baronies, shires, etc. have their own customs already. Outside of fighting (and arguably even within it), we need more and not less diversity: the current SCA is like an organization dedicated to culinary excellence that allows only identically-run burger joints to join, for the sake of uniformity. Allowing a few Chinese and Mexican restaurants as well would be better, not worse, and wouldn't threaten the existence of the burger joints. Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [mfy@sli.com] From nordmark-request Fri Mar 11 22:10:50 1994 Received: from bronze.lcs.mit.edu (BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU [18.30.0.254]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA19779 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 22:10:36 +0100 Received: by bronze.lcs.mit.edu id AA19242; Fri, 11 Mar 94 16:05:20 EST Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 16:05:20 EST From: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Message-Id: <9403112105.AA19242@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> To: NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu Subject: Where We Go From Here Status: RO Unto the good gentles of the Known World do Hossein Ali Qomi, Baron, Lion of Ansteorra, and the Committee to Save Our Society send greetings! On Tuesday evening last the Board of Directors elected three replacements for those Directors who have resigned. The Board now has a quorum and can conduct business. The Board has not yet answered the demand for accountability and representation made by the Crowns at Estrella. The Board has not yet rescinded the January 22 policies. Mr. Tatro put forward a motion regarding compulsory membership at the previous conference call meeting, but that was tabled to the April Board meeting and no text of that motion has been made available to the advisory membership. We do not know how much or how little of compulsory membership Mr. Tatro proposed to rescind. We do know that the Board was unwilling to act on it last week. The Board has not yet rescinded pay-to-fight, nor even accepted a motion proposing such a thing. The Board has not yet published a detailed budget or a full accounting of its expenditures over the past two years. The Board has not yet opened the books to the advisory membership, nor taken any action to reveal exactly what the alleged financial crisis is. The Board still stonewalls and keeps us in the dark about what it has done and proposes to do with _our money_. As a result, we still have no clear picture of the corporation's financial standing. The Board still plans to proceed with the membership rate increases. The Board still plans to keep its minutes secret and provide only a summary of what it wants the membership to know in TI. The crisis which faces the SCA is a crisis of confidence in the corporate institution. The real issues are accountability, representation, and the refusal to disclose information. The crisis, including the policies of January 22, arose precisely because these issues have never been addressed. We have said all along that this struggle was not about personalities or individuals. The resignation of three directors changes nothing. The appointment of three new directors is a positive step only if the Board becomes committed thereby to real reform. The fundamental problems are still there and the Board has said nothing about them. We did not oppose the Board because they are bad people. We opposed the Board because it is part of a bad system. That system is accountable to no one, represents no one, and conceals vital information from the people who are most affected by the Board's policies -- the membership. We truly hope that the new Directors will persuade those who remained on the Board that the Board _must_ address the fundamental issues, _must_ move immediately to accountability, representation, and full disclosure. A solution to these problems cannot wait. We believe that John Fulton (Duke John Bearkiller) will be a positive force on the Board and we applaud his selection. However, we are less sanguine about the Board's decision to reappoint two former Directors. The system is flawed and it makes little sense to recruit two people who were comfortable with that flawed system in order to reform it. Eric Mohr (Count Cire) has made no public statement on the crisis and we hope that he can be won to the cause of reform. Elizabeth Johnson (Duchess Ysabeau) is more problematic; she was chairman of the Board at the secret August 1992 meeting in Dallas where the policies enacted this past January were first planned by the Board. It is difficult to understand why one of the authors of these policies should be chosen if the Board intends to rescind them. Some say that the Board members will need time to learn about the crisis. The new Board members may need time to discover how the Board has brought us to this crisis. They need no time to recognize that the crisis is upon us. They need no time to recognize that accountability, representation, and full disclosure are the only way out. Accountability, representation and full disclosure are not "facts" to be learned, but values to be held. If they don't have these values now, then nothing truly has changed. The Board must answer the demand made at Estrella. The Board must institute accountability to the membership. The Board must give the kingdoms representation on the Board. The Board must make full disclosure. We must keep the pressure on for real reform. Spread the word. Write to the Board and the Crowns. Let them know that you want accountability, representation, and full disclosure _now_. Keep circulating the petitions to impeach -- three Directors who brought us to this crisis are still on the Board. If they continue to block reform, they must be impeached. We will not give up. We will fight as long as it takes to gain accountability, representation and full disclosure. The struggle is not over. It has only begun. Now is not the time to rest. In Service to the Society and for the Committee to Save Our Society, Hossein Ali Qomi, Baron, Lion of Ansteorra (Gregory Rose) Please send replies to greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu or post to individual lists. I have no desire to clog everyone's mailboxes. From nordmark-request Sat Mar 12 01:51:54 1994 Received: from bronze.lcs.mit.edu (BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU [18.30.0.254]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA22525 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 1994 01:51:46 +0100 Received: by bronze.lcs.mit.edu id AA22247; Fri, 11 Mar 94 19:44:54 EST Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 19:44:54 EST From: huff@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Robert Huff) Message-Id: <9403120044.AA22247@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> To: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu Cc: hablutzelml@attmail.com, cclaus@willamette.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: Mark Schuldenfrei's message of Fri, 11 Mar 1994 11:17:39 -0500 (EST) <9403111617.AA05101@math.harvard.edu> Subject: The recent past and the near future Status: RO Hello: I'm not a lawyer (either), but I believe the following in inaccurate: > Malfeasance means violation of law, willfully, according to my online > dictionary. It isn't Black's Legal Dictionary, but it is the best I have. To my understanding "malfeasance" is when you, with good intentions, do something badly; "misfeasance" is when you deliberately fail to follow the/law/procedure/whatever. Diego Mundoz From nordmark-request Sat Mar 12 01:51:32 1994 Received: from emh.kadena.af.mil (EMH.KADENA.AF.MIL [132.15.224.10]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA22520 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 1994 01:51:12 +0100 Received: by emh.kadena.af.mil (5.60 pl1/25-eef) id AA01014; Sat, 12 Mar 94 09:32:04 JST From: Michael Curtin Message-Id: <9403120932.AA01014@emh.kadena.af.mil> Subject: Re: The recent past and the near future To: schuldy@zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 1994 09:31:59 +0000 (JST) Cc: hablutzelml@attmail.com, cclaus@willamette.edu, mittle@watson.ibm.com, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: <9403111617.AA05101@math.harvard.edu> from "Mark Schuldenfrei" at Mar 11, 94 11:17:39 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6889 Status: RO > > With due respect, there was nothing else under either the SCA, Inc., > documents nor the laws of California that the Directors could have don e! > With an undersized Board, they could take no action, including > consideration of the "Estrella Proclamation." They could not either > alter the By-Laws to provide for a different method of selecting > Directors, nor could they accept persons upon whom the advisory > membership had not been offered the opportunity to comment. Any perso n > who had not been a Director or was not on one of the list of nominees > would lack that possibility. At least there has been the possibility, > now or in the past, of commenting upon the persons selected. > > The Bylaws restrict the domain of people who can be selected to paid > participants, over 21, etcetera. The methodology for appointment and > consideration is a policy. As I wrote on the Rialto, one can violate a > policy with no legal ramifications. > > Now, of course, one shouldn't violate this policy without great need. > However, I believe that this is the first time the Board was below quoru m, > the first time 3 directors resigned all at once, and the Society is in > arguably one of the deepest crisis it has been in in years. > > Certainly, the Board could have loosened up enough to listen to the Crow ns. > They certainly could have contacted all the Crowns before the meeting. A nd > certainly, they could have waited more than the minimum 72 hours, giving the > membership some time to respond. Instead, they gave no notice at all, an d > avoided consultation with the Crowns. > > Additionally, a corporation cannot continue without a President or > Treasurer, as the SCA, Inc., had been forced to do by the resignations . > These are the two statutorily-required offices, and it could be > construed as malfeasance to allow them to continue unfilled. > > As we all are perfectly aware, I am not an attorney. But it seems to me > that malfeasance would constitute failure to appoint before the next > regularly scheduled meeting, or to fail to appoint new officers before t he > conclusion of the next meeting of the quorum. As it is right now, we ha ve > no Treasurer or President, yet, because there has been no meeting of the new > quorum of Directors. I think, perhaps, you used the term with a little too > much freedom. > > Malfeasance means violation of law, willfully, according to my online > dictionary. It isn't Black's Legal Dictionary, but it is the best I hav e. > > Actually, though, you have pointed out an excellent critique of the > reorganization of the Board. We used to have a separation between the > officers and Directors. Now, they are the same thing. So, whenever we lo se > enough Directors to be below quorum, we have probably lost required offi cers > as well, and cannot appoint them. It is a structural problem, caused by the > consolidation of power over the Society. Perhaps that consolidation was > malfeasance: I don't know. > > Arval > >> All the offending policies stand: compulsory membership, > >> pay-to-fight, the membership fee hike, the restriction of Board > >> minutes, the new exchequer reporting policies, the SCAM, > >> renting the mailing list, etc. > > Yes, but some have been stayed pending the April Board Meeting, and th e > more egregious ones have not been implemented. > > Absolutely true. However, this misses the key point: the Board of Direct ors > met on March 2nd. They made no attempt to fix even the simplest of probl ems > caused by the January 22nd meeting. The sole attempt to address the mos t > minor point was postponed until April. And, we have no idea if Randall's \y\`> proposal was substantive in its change, or merely decorative. It's mere > existence really doesn't change anything one way or the other. It's > postponement speaks volumes. > > > In other words, don't give the new Directors time to get up to speed a nd > determine what steps to take. It seems almost as if Arval is asking > that we tell the new Directors, "because you are a Director and you we re > chosen by the previous Directors, you are de facto a bad person." Wha t > other interpretation can they make of the fact that the impeachment > drive continues? It is really not fair, IMHO. It is as if those of u s > asking for change were told, "you are just a hotheaded radical who > doesn't care that the Society is not longer a backyard club, and you > need to get your head out of the 1960's." > > This isn't fair of *you*. The current Directors are ignoring the letters we > send. Perhaps the new Directors will be more open, since (except for one ) > they have no vested interest in defending the decisions of January 1992. > > There is nothing radical or unfair about saying: the Directors who resig ned > have received feedback from the membership. Let's make sure the new > Directors get the same feedback. > > I would preach a more moderate line: Let's give them a chance. If we > put unnecessary pressure on the Board, they could decide that the > advisory membership is so hostile and unworkable, there is no hope of > finding a solution to the problem. They may very well say, "the plans > are in place, tough" -- and I really don't want to see that. > > I want to give them a chance, but only after they are fully informed. F ully > informed means hearing from the membership. > > Also, if the Board finds the participants to truly be hostile and hard t o > deal with, one would hope they would realize that without participants, they > are King Log and King Stork. > > If we are really committed to mending the Society, we should let the n ew > Directors have a chance to get up to speed. Continuing with the > impeachment petitions at this time, or an immediate barrage of demandi ng > letters, could hurt the cause of change. Sometimes when you put enoug h > of a siege on people, they prefer to all die and destroy the culture > than to capitulate. Let this not happen here. > > I find the opposite to be true. For the Directors cannot destroy our > culture: we would take it someplace else. I don't know about you, but I > intend to meet with, and learn from the members of my local group, wheth er > there exists an SCA, Inc. or not. > > We still have the task of convincing the Old Directors, and the new task of > educating the New Directors before their positions harden. > > Tibor > ________________________________________________________________________ _____ > SCA-West Mail List for the West Kingdom of th e SCA > For help, send HELP to: sca-west-request@ecst.csuchico.edu (a machine, f olks) ew+~ }NOU7t+DB]> List Administration: sca-west-owner@ecst.csuchico.edu > Sponsored by: CSU Chico, Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering > i From nordmark-request Sun Mar 13 17:34:33 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA16895 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 17:34:22 +0100 Message-Id: <199403131634.RAA16895@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 13 Mar 94 16:26:13 GMT To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beason.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, grant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Sun Mar 13 16:26:13 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message Content-Type: text Status: RO On March 10, 1994, I uploaded a reply to Arval's demand that the pressure on the Board be maintained, now that it is up to six members again. The many responses to my posting have been quite interesting, and show a great misunderstanding of what I said, which was: >> In other words, don't give the new Directors time to get up to >> speed and determine what steps to take. It seems almost as if >> Arval is asking that we tell the new Directors, "because you >> are a Director and you were chosen by the previous Directors, >> you are de facto a bad person." What other interpretation can >> they make of the fact that the impeachment drive continues? >> It is really not fair, IMHO. * * * >> I would preach a more moderate line: Let's give them a chance. >> * * * If we are really committed to mending the Society, we >> should let the new Directors have a chance to get up to speed. >> Continuing with the impeachment petitions at this time, or an >> immediate barrage of demanding letters, could hurt the cause of >> change. I stand by what I said. Logic shows that the EARLIEST date on which documents could have been received by the new Board members was Thursday. Arval demanded that we continue the barrage of letters even before the new Directors would have had a chance to read the Corporate documents to determine what your letters are discussing. That seems to be very unfair. I said "immediate" -- what would be the harm in waiting a few days, giving them the weekend in which to acquaint themselves with the situation from the Board's perspective? I also stand by what I said about the impeachment petitions. You are sending the message that "we don't trust you, we don't believe that there will be any change." You are not even giving them a chance!! There has been no response to the "Estrella Proclamation," and the deadline for that has not yet passed. Why not suspend the impeachment petitions until we have the answer? It's only a week. ---= Morgan Cely Cain PS: I fully expect there to be chalenges to my request that we allow the new Board members a chance "to acquaint themselves with the situation from the Board's perspective." Face it, if they are being asked to change things, they ought to know how the situation started from the side that started it. WE lack most of the critical information, to which they are now privy. Once they have a handle on the situation, they will better understand why the advisory membership is up in arms. IMHO From nordmark-request Sun Mar 13 22:08:03 1994 Received: from bronze.lcs.mit.edu (BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU [18.30.0.254]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA19991 for ; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 22:07:48 +0100 Received: by bronze.lcs.mit.edu id AA15416; Sun, 13 Mar 94 16:03:15 EST Date: Sun, 13 Mar 94 16:03:15 EST From: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Message-Id: <9403132103.AA15416@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> To: 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beason.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, grant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, hablutzelml@attmail.com, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, rgoff@mcimail.com, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: Re: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message Status: RO I point out that, contrary to Morgan Cely Cain's implication, the impeachment petitions do not even mention the new directors. They only name the _old_ directors, who were sufficiently "up to speed" to have enacted the policies of January 22 in the first place. The call to suspend circulation of petitions is predicated on a false assumption. Hossein Ali Qomi (Gregory Rose) From nordmark-request Mon Mar 14 02:37:29 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA22556 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 02:37:26 +0100 Message-Id: <199403140137.CAA22556@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 14 Mar 94 01:30:19 GMT To: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose), 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, mit.edu!carolingia@bloom-beacon.attmail.com, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, rgoff@mcimail.com, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Mon Mar 14 01:30:19 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Re: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message In-Reply-To: your message <9403132103.AA15416@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> of Sun Mar 13 16:03:15 -0500 1994 Content-Type: text Status: RO Hossein claims that to suspend circulation of the impeachment petitions is "based on a false assumption" because they name only the old Directors, and not the new. Had he carefully read my posting, he would have seen that I asked that they be suspended because I believe continued circulation will imply to the three remaining old Directors that we will not give them a chance to mend their ways; we offer no opportunity for apology. And I thought that we were all much more civilized than that. ---= Morgan Cely Cain From nordmark-request Mon Mar 14 03:20:23 1994 Received: from andrew.cmu.edu (ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.101]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id DAA22916 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 03:20:20 +0100 Received: from localhost (postman@localhost) by andrew.cmu.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id VAA16537; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:19:43 -0500 Received: via switchmail; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix9.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix9.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.4.60.Nov..4.1993.10.47.32.pmax.ul4.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix9.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax.ul4 via MS.5.6.unix9.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax_ul4; Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:17:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 21:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: David Schroeder To: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Subject: Re: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message Cc: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose), 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, calontir@unl.edu, mit.edu!carolingia@bloom-beacon.attmail.com, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, rgoff@mcimail.com, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Status: RO Hi folks! Morgan is responding to Hossein's critique of her initial post... >Hossein claims that to suspend circulation of the impeachment >petitions is "based on a false assumption" because they name >only the old Directors, and not the new. Had he carefully read >my posting, he would have seen that I asked that they be suspended >because I believe continued circulation will imply to the three >remaining old Directors that we will not give them a chance to >mend their ways; we offer no opportunity for apology. I'm puzzled. Haven't they had plenty of opportunities, in writing and in person, to apologize? Have any of them done so? Not being picky, but there's no reason for them to have to wait until the Board meeting to apologize, especially since a public apology would go a long way toward easing the tensions of the current situation. I know I'd sleep a lot easier at night if I knew that the Three Who Stayed understood what they'd done wrong and were sincere about making things right. Why do we have to wait for them to apologize rather than having them apologize now? Or am I missing some crucial details... ? Help me understand, please... thanks! My best -- Bertram From nordmark-request Mon Mar 14 07:40:52 1994 Received: from nutter.cs.vt.edu (nutter.cs.vt.edu [128.173.40.81]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA25057 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 07:40:50 +0100 Received: by nutter.cs.vt.edu (5.61/A/UX-2.00) id AA01358; Mon, 14 Mar 94 01:49:19 EST Date: Mon, 14 Mar 94 01:49:19 EST From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Message-Id: <9403140649.AA01358@nutter.cs.vt.edu> To: 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu, hablutzelml@attmail.com, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, mit.edu!carolingia@bloom-beacon.attmail.com, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, rgoff@mcimail.com, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: Re: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message Status: RO Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Morgan Cely Cain writes: > Hossein claims that to suspend circulation of the impeachment > petitions is "based on a false assumption" because they name > only the old Directors, and not the new. Had he carefully read > my posting, he would have seen that I asked that they be suspended > because I believe continued circulation will imply to the three > remaining old Directors that we will not give them a chance to > mend their ways; we offer no opportunity for apology. > > And I thought that we were all much more civilized than that. First, Morgan misses what I think is the major point. The impeachment issue is not about personalities. It is not about whether these people are good, or whether they mean well, or even whether they are competent. It is about breaking with a structure and with those who have learned to operate under a set of procedures that are themselves pernicious, whether or not the people using them are. But even were the impeachments about the people, I think she is still mistaken. I think Morgan has a fundamentally different view of impeachment than I do. Morgan's view seems to be something like a statement that the individuals being impeached are bad people who have done something unforgiveable. My view is that impeachment says that the person in question has done things that indicate that that person should not be in the position s/he holds. It does not indicate that s/he cannot mend his/her ways; only that the Directorship of the Society is not the appropriate venue from which to do so. I do not see how it is incompatible with civilization to say that those who have shown themselves, for whatever reason, inappropriate to a given office should be required to alter their ways _before_ enjoying that office again, not _while_ enjoying it. -- Angharad/Terry From nordmark-request Mon Mar 14 08:20:25 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA25451 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:20:22 +0100 Message-Id: <199403140720.IAA25451@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 14 Mar 94 06:29:51 GMT To: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ), antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.matha.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Mon Mar 14 06:29:51 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Further Clarification -- Please Read ALL Words!!! In-Reply-To: your message of Sun Mar 13 11:26:13 CDT 1994 Content-Type: text Status: RO Apparently people have been reacting to my posting of this morning without reading it fully. In discussing the impeachment petitions, I clearly said: >> I also stand by what I said about the impeachment >> petitions. * * * There has been no response to the >> "Estrella Proclamation," and the deadline for that has >> not yet passed. Why not suspend the impeachment >> petitions until we have the answer? It's only a week. Yet Hossein wrote: >> I point out that, contrary to Morgan Cely Cain's >> implication, the impeachment petitions do not even >> mention the new directors. They only name the _old_ >> directors, who were sufficiently "up to speed" to have >> enacted the policies of January 22 in the first place. >> The call to suspend circulation of petitions is >> predicated on a false assumption. No, it is not. I am fully aware that the petitions name only the old Board members, three of whom have resigned of their own accord. If you had read my earlier posting, it suggests that we refrain from continuing until the date for the "Estrella Proclamation" has passed, to give the Board members -- especially the old ones -- the opportunity to show that they have heeded the words of the Crowns and of the Populace. Bertram then wrote, in response to my first response to Hossein, in which I suggested that we offer the Board members the opportunity for apology: >> I'm puzzled. Haven't they had plenty of >> opportunities, in writing and in person, to apologize? >> Not being picky, but there's no reason for them to >> have to wait until the Board meeting to apologize, As I had stated, I am asking only that we wait until the deadline for the "Estrella Proclamation" -- NOT, emphatically NOT until the April Board Meeting! I didn't think another week (or ten days?) was too long to wait -- am I wrong? ---= Morgan Cely Cain * * remembering that Patience is a virtue..... From nordmark-request Mon Mar 14 18:58:30 1994 Received: from bach.seattleu.edu ([192.222.32.11]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA03813 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 18:58:19 +0100 Received: by bach.seattleu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13740; Mon, 14 Mar 94 09:10:00 PST Date: Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:07:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul R. Stratton" Subject: Re: Clarification re: "Past & Future" Message To: Margo Lynn Hablutzel Cc: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beason.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, grant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu In-Reply-To: <199403131634.AA04575@gateway.kwantlen.bc.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On 13 Mar 1994, Margo Lynn Hablutzel wrote: > I stand by what I said. Logic shows that the EARLIEST date on which > documents could have been received by the new Board members was > Thursday. Eric Mohr recieved his packet on Friday. It was 6 inches thick. I think it's going to take a few days to read it. Drogo From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 10:11:54 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA09093 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:11:53 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA28173 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:11:51 +0100 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:11:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199403150911.AA28173@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: f{kta From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William h{lsar er. FYI: Jag annonserade ut f{ktgrejor f|r ett tag sedan. Alla de saker som g}r att anv{nda i SCA s}ldes vid Tinget. Resterande utrustning {r f|rsedd med ortopediska grepp, ej SCA-laglig. Det finns |vrigt material till en florett och tre v{rjor, men klingorna g}r inte att anv{nda eftersom de {r avtagna f|r ortopediska grepp. William de Corbie From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 11:30:53 1994 Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.2.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA09771 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:30:51 +0100 Received: from eds05 (eds05.ericsson.se) by mailgate.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-MAILGATE1.14) id AA17672; Tue, 15 Mar 94 11:30:49 +0100 Registered-Mail-Reply-Requested-By: "ERA.ERAAINA" Received: from mrp.ericsson.se by eds.ericsson.se (PMDF V4.2-15 #1) id <01H9ZZF94ACG8X0RBV@eds.ericsson.se>; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:31:06 +0100 Received: with PMDF-MR; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:25:44 +0100 Mr-Received: by mta EDS05; Relayed; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:25:44 +0100 (+0100) Alternate-Recipient: prohibited Disclose-Recipients: prohibited Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:24:00 +0100 From: "ERA.ERAAINA" Subject: Celemon To: NORDMARK@LUDD.LUTH.SE Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Ua-Content-Id: xtPUoqftCC'xyvCM X400-Mts-Identifier: [;44521151304991/1198787@EDS] Hop-Count: 1 Status: RO --- Received from ERA.ERAAINA 08-757 3505 94-03-15 11.24 -> VAX.NORDMARK..LUDD.LUTH.SE..INET -: - - - - - - - - - - > MAIL USER IN VAX AND INTERNET Heloise här. Jag skulle bli glad om Celemon (Hilda) kunde höra av sig till mig på adress ERA.ERAAINA\MEMO.ERICSSON.SE eller om någon kan skicka mig Celemons direktadress. Salvete, Heloise From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 13:01:18 1994 Received: from goliath.unda.fi (goliath.unda.fi [193.64.23.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA11016 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 13:01:15 +0100 Received: from unda.fi (titan.unda.fi) by goliath.unda.fi (5.65c/93.6.3-MAI) id AA27612; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 13:59:56 +0200 Received: from nipsu.unda.fi by unda.fi (4.1/MAI-94.2.12) id AA01442; Tue, 15 Mar 94 13:57:26 +0200 Received: by nipsu.unda.fi (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10047; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 14:00:15 --200 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 14:00:15 --200 From: jkaksonen@unda.fi (Jokke Kaksonen) Message-Id: <9403151200.AA10047@nipsu.unda.fi> To: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se Subject: Styringheim X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 132 Status: RO Hej. Finns det naagon fraan Styringheim som laeser den haer listan ??? Celestinus mac Criohmthainn deputy-Senechal of Aarnimetsae From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 16:32:34 1994 Received: from nic.near.net (nic.near.net [192.52.71.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13537 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 16:32:24 +0100 Received: from [137.71.23.11] by nic.near.net id aa25821; 15 Mar 94 15:30 GMT Received: from nwd2sun1.analog.com by adi Received: from zeus.spd.analog.com by nwd2sun1.analog.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) Message-Id: <9403151526.AA20067@nwd2sun1.analog.com> Received: from dspmac1 (dspmac1.spd.analog.com) by zeus.spd.analog.com Date: 14 Mar 1994 19:37:08 U From: Greg Dearborn Subject: Hate Mail To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, Carolingia , e5@uriacc.uri.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, Northern Region , sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Status: RO Reply to: Hate Mail Greetings unto all from Lord Gareth of Stonemarche. A close friend of mine who spent some time with Randall Tatro this weekend shared some news with me. Randall told her that he has been getting "hate mail." This really bugs me because: I. I thought the Society fostered better values in its members than that. II. It hurts our cause to alienate Board members. III. While I may disagree with his politics, Randall is the very model of Chivalry and has been a good friend to Stonemarche, on and off the throne, and so a personal attack against him feels like a personal attack against me. (Note that I don't count impeaching him as a personal attack. I don't count writing him a letter explaining why you disagree with him a personal attack. I do not consider the Estrella Ultimatum a personal attack. I *do* count writing him an insulting letter a personal attack.) Please, when you are campaigning at events and local meetings to get gentles to write to the Board, remind them that if we can't win this fight courteously, there's no reason to win it at all. Also, my friend mentioned that Randall is annoyed by the half-truths on the electronic message nets. IMHO, that's part of life on the Internet; some things on the Net must be taken with a small Siberian salt mine. All the more reason why we must be very careful to document what we post. Example: Bertram thinks outsourcing is a good idea. Bertram spent a lot of time researching and writing a comprehensive report on the topic. Bertram has backed up his opinion with hard data. This is a Good Thing. My thanks for your time and consideration of my concerns. Your servant, Gareth greg.dearborn@anlog.com gdd@world.std.com From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 17:35:05 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA14289 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 17:35:03 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9205; Tue, 15 Mar 94 11:34:50 EST Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 9120; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:36:28 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 15 Mar 94 11:36:26 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA20959; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:34:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:34:41 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403151634.AA20959@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, north@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu In-Reply-To: Greg Dearborn's message of 14 Mar 1994 19:37:08 U <9403151526.AA20067@nwd2sun1.analog.com> Subject: Hate Mail Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO Greetings from Arval! Gareth reported: > A close friend of mine who spent some time with Randall Tatro > this weekend shared some news with me. Randall told her that he has been > getting "hate mail." This is reprehensible. If anyone knows of the source of this slime (which, unfortunately, is apparently being received by other directors as well), please quash it. It is wrong. > Also, my friend mentioned that Randall is annoyed by the half-truths > on the electronic message nets. If Randall would like to provide us with timely, accurate information, we would be delighted to help him by disseminating it as widely as possible. As long as the corporation refuses to give us information, it is hardly in a position to complain when we make do with what we can discover on our own. Arval. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 18:37:52 1994 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA14903 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 18:37:46 +0100 Received: from uucp6.UU.NET by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AAwhja25381; Tue, 15 Mar 94 12:33:16 -0500 Received: from unify.UUCP by uucp6.UU.NET with UUCP/RMAIL ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 12:33:20 -0500 Received: from molokini.sac.unify.com (molokini.sac.unify.com [192.9.200.57]) by unify.sac.unify.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA26079; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 09:24:45 -0800 Received: by molokini.sac.unify.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01754; Tue, 15 Mar 94 09:19:05 PST Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 09:19:05 PST From: jde@molokini.sac.unify.com (Jeff Evarts) Message-Id: <9403151719.AA01754@molokini.sac.unify.com> To: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, north@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, greg.dearborn@analog.com Subject: Re: Hate Mail Status: RO Well said my lord! There are many unwritten rules in the SCA, and anyone sending rude or abusive (as opposed to angry yet constructive) mail to the members of the board is violating a far more important one than any that the board have broken. Courtesy first, or we are lost for certes. In service, Flynn Riventree, MKA Jeff Evarts From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 20:14:41 1994 Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [162.148.13.13]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA16990 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 20:14:34 +0100 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18432; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:11:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:11:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jeanne Stapleton Subject: Re: Hate Mail To: Jeff Evarts Cc: antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, north@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, greg.dearborn@analog.com In-Reply-To: <9403151719.AA01754@molokini.sac.unify.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Greetings, gentle friends: It is inevitable that the members of the Board are going to receive mail loaded with negative emotional tone, as well as calm, reasoned arguments. I do not think of this as hate mail, unless it strays into the realm of the personally insulting. However, in a phone conversation two weeks ago with A.J., he mentioned that the Board was having sort of an informal, cynical "who gets the weirdest mail" comparison. He said that his weirdest receipt was of a black and white postcard showing a '20s gangster riddled with machine gun bullets, and the unsigned notation on the back, "Step down or else". This I *do* consider unacceptable. This is not constructive, nor is it remotely courteous. I have to say that A.J. had more of a sense of humor about it than I would have, had I been the recipient. Jeanne C. Stapleton berrie@eskimo.com (voice) (206)232-5593 SCA: Berengaria de Montfort of Carcassonne (message)(206)236-2065 "As soon as I've gathered enough information for the Almighty Zontar, I'm outta here." From nordmark-request Tue Mar 15 20:57:51 1994 Received: from nak.berkeley.edu (nak.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.136.21]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id UAA17969 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 20:57:37 +0100 Received: from [128.32.144.118] by nak.berkeley.edu (8.6.4/1.40) id LAA04579; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:56:10 -0800 X-NUPop-Charset: English Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 11:45:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Flieg Hollander" Sender: flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu Reply-To: flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu Message-Id: <42382.flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu> To: greg.dearborn@analog.com, antir@Kwantlen.BC.CA, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, north@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: RE: Hate Mail Status: RO Frederick here -=- Gareth of Stonemarche wrote: > > A close friend of mine who spent some time with Randall Tatro > this weekend shared some news with me. Randall told her that he has been > getting "hate mail." > Please allow me to second the response of Master Arval, and to hope that it is the response of everyone within sight of these words. I have a deep and profound reaction to the actions of the Board. I have been fighting this fight for many years. I have written scurrilous songs, even, and certainly argued loud and long with more than one member of the Board. However, while I can imagine hating one or more Board members, I cannot imagine writing a letter which was not at least overtly polite. Hate mail is _not_ acceptable in this cause. *grump* --Frederick , , * * * Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP, etc. *** *** *** flieg@garnet.berkeley.edu _|___|___|_ On Bitnet, try: flieg@ucbgarne |===========| (((Flieg Hollander, Chem. Dept., U.C. Berkeley))) ================== Old Used Duke ================= From nordmark-request Wed Mar 16 19:44:25 1994 Received: from goliat.dc.luth.se (root@goliat.dc.luth.se [130.240.12.20]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA00446 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 19:44:24 +0100 Received: from unauthenticated@mailgate.ericsson.se by goliat.dc.luth.se with SMTP (5.67b8/IDA-1.2.8-NS) id AA21324; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 19:11:48 +0100 Received: from radiomail.net by mailgate.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-MAILGATE1.14) id AY15804; Wed, 16 Mar 94 16:46:02 +0100 Registered-Mail-Reply-Requested-By: "ERA.ERAAINA" Received: from mrp.ericsson.se by eds.ericsson.se (PMDF V4.2-15 #1) id <01HA1NKVMH748X1P3Y@eds.ericsson.se>; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 16:03:05 +0100 Received: with PMDF-MR; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 16:01:34 +0100 Mr-Received: by mta EDS05; Relayed; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 16:01:34 +0100 (+0100) Alternate-Recipient: prohibited Disclose-Recipients: prohibited Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:59:00 +0100 From: "ERA.ERAAINA" Subject: Undeliverable To: NORDMARK@ludd.luth.se Message-Id: <"yJwAoyfNPoCK cDM*"@MHS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Ua-Content-Id: yJwAoyfNPoCK cDM X400-Mts-Identifier: [;43106161304991/1208541@EDS] Hop-Count: 1 Status: RO --- Received from ERA.ERAAINA 08-757 3505 94-03-16 15.59 -> VAX.NORDMARK..LUDD.LUTH.SE..INET -: - - - - - - - - - - > MAIL USER IN VAX AND INTERNET Celemon, av någon anledning kan jag inte skicka mail till dig. Jag tror att adressen är för lång för Ericssons memosystem. Det kommer ett vanligt konventionellt brev! Tack alla ni (inklusive Celemon) som skickat adressen. Man kan konstatera att god serviceanda råder. M V H Heloise Text: RFC-822-headers: Received: with PMDF-MR; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:54:26 +0100 MR-Received: by mta EDS05; Relayed; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:54:26 +0100 (+0100) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Disclose-recipients: prohibited MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN UA-content-id: yFA'oy'MzBfsBODM X400-MTS-identifier: Ä;62455161304991/1208479ÉEDSÅ Hop-count: 1 Note: The original sender address on this message: was invalid and has been replaced with the local postmaster's address. RFC-822-headers: Received: from mrp.ericsson.se by eds.ericsson.se (PMDF V4.2-15 Ä1) id <01HA1N8RI6XC8X1P3YÉeds.ericsson.se>; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:54:50 +0100 X-Envelope-to: ERA.ERAAINAÉmemo.ericsson.se MIME-version: 1.0 Distribution List: postmaster..eds.ericsson.se..INET..EDS..FREEFORM=postmaster..eds.ericsson .se ERA.ERAAINA..MEMO..EDS..FREEFORM=ERA.ERAAINA From nordmark-request Wed Mar 16 21:45:00 1994 Received: from sun3.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (sun3.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk [128.86.8.50]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA02542 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 21:44:58 +0100 Via: uk.ac.edinburgh.castle; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 19:55:51 +0000 From: D J B Hunter Subject: Impeachment Petitions - mailing lists. To: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Wed, 16 Mar 94 19:55:39 GMT Message-ID: <9403161955.aa02792@uk.ac.ed.castle> Status: RO Greetings from Wolfgang Adolphus Jager. A couple of weeks ago, Mistress Caitlin de Courcy and I sent out an information package regarding the Board of Director's decisions at their meeting of 22nd January to all the seneschals, royalty, baroncy and most of the officers of Drachenwald. Included was a petition to impeach the Board. These petitions are due to be returned either to myself, or to Arval (whose address appears at the bottom of the cover letter, along with mine) by 22nd March, which fast approaches. This missive is to remind everyone who wishes to do so, to find a copy, sign and send it as soon as they can. If further information is required, it can be obtained from Cait or I at albion@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk In service to reform. Wolfgang From nordmark-request Thu Mar 17 05:58:09 1994 Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net (mailgate.prod.aol.net [192.203.190.181]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA03084 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 05:58:02 +0100 From: hamizrachi@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA06406; Wed, 16 Mar 94 23:56:08 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Sender: "hamizrachi" Message-Id: <9403162356.tn82961@aol.com> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Wed, 16 Mar 94 23:56:03 EST Subject: Law suit filed against SCA, Inc. Status: RO Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov. His Excellency, Baron Hossein Ali Qomi, Lion of Ansteora, has asked me to post these words. (His Excellency is on his way to Gulf Wars.) A NECESSARY STEP In its public pronouncements the Board has specifically claimed that the primary reason for the policies adopted on January 22 is a financial crisis. Since that time the Board has not presented the membership with a detailed budget or accounting of the SCA, Inc.'s financial standing sufficient to permit the membership to decide whether the claim of a financial crisis is well-founded. Since January 22 many members of the SCA have asked the Board of Directors for access to the books of account as they should be permitted under the By-Laws. The Board has stonewalled every request. The By-Laws of the SCA, Inc. state in Article X: "The books of account may be inspected by any member or member's agent, for any reasonable purpose at any reasonable time." Whenever the By-Laws refer to members, (such as when they talk about office holding, or who may become a member) they mean those who have paid for a membership card. We report to you the status of one particular attempt to examine the books of the corporation. On January 27, Monica Cellio (Mistress Ellisif Flakkari, OP) faxed a request to the corporate office for access to "the 1994 budget, the books of account, and the independent audit of said books conducted recently," as the By-Laws and California Corporations Code Sections 6333 and 6321(e)(2) provide. On February 28, Monica received from SCA, Inc. Executive Director Anthon y Provine a form to fill out and return specifying exactly what materials were being sought. Moni ca replied on March 1 with a request for access to: - The detailed balance sheets, acco unts payable, accounts receivable, and general ledger for 1992, 1993, and 1994 through F ebruary 28, 1994; - All IRS Forms 990 and 990A filed since the founding of the corporatio n; - All data supplied to the auditors who recently completed inspection; - The auditors' opinions and notes on the same, and interim and final reports; - The 1994 budg et, including all drafts; - Copies of all contracts for corporate expenditures that ar e current or were enacted within calendar 1992, 1993, or 1994; - Current inventory of the Stock Clerk/SCA Marketplace; - All other documents or any other system of records, in cluding those in electronic or other form, which would qualify under CA Corp. Code 6336. Sh e also specified, at the SCA, Inc.'s request, three dates and times at which her legal agent in California would be available to inspect these materials: March 2, 1-3 pm, March 4, 1-3 pm, and M arch 8, 1-3 pm. On March 8th, having received no response to her return of the form, Moni ca faxed a letter to Provine in which she stated: "Because this request is time-sensitive and beca use I have been waiting for more than five weeks already, please name a time within the next 24 hours (before 4:30pm EST March 9, 1994) at which this inspection can be conducted by my age nt at your office in Milpitas. If you do not do so, I will file suit to obtain the information." On March 10, Monica's legal agent in California, Wendy Roeder (Gwendolyn the Rat-Keeper) , went to the corporate office in Milpitas to make the request in person. At that time Pro vine denied the request and handed Wendy a letter to Monica, which read: "This is to inform you that your request to inspect the SCA's books of account is respectfully declined." Even more galling was the date on the letter: February 8, 1994, a full twenty days _before_ Provine faxed Monica a reque st for additional information and asked her to name convenient dates and times. Monica h ad not, at that time, ever received any such letter. Wendy also made a formal request on Monica's behalf for copies of all the IRS Forms 990 and 990A filed by the corporation since its f ounding. The SCA, Inc., like any other 501c(3) corporation, is required by the U.S. Tax Code to maintain copies of these forms and to provide them to any person who requests them whatsoever . Failure to do so is a violation of 26 U.S.C. 6104(e), a federal law. Provine denied t his request. On Wednesday, March 16, Earnest Goldsmith, A California lawyer who specializes in non-profit corporation litigation, called James Seely, the Corporate Counsel for SCA, Inc. Mr. Goldsmith re-iterated the request for permission to see both the books and the 990s, a s required under the by-laws, Federal, and California law. Mr. Seely brusquely denied the request. Mr. Goldsmith then counseled filing suit forthwith to force the corporation to comply with the law. On Thursday, March 17, Monica Cellio, a member of the Committee to Save Our Society, will file suit against the SCA, Inc., its Executive Director, Anthony Provine, and its Corporate Secretary and Registrar, Renee Signorotti, in the Superior Court of Santa Clara County (Milpitas), asking that the Court order the corporation to make available to the membership the financial records which it is required to make available under the By-Laws and California Corporations Code Sections 6333 and 6321(e)(2). The Executive Director and the Corporate Secretary and Registrar were named in the suit because, as officers of the corporation, they are legally responsible for the safekeeping of the documents in question. This action was not taken lightly or without due reflection. The Board refuses to obey its own by-laws and federal and state laws. The membership has a right to know how the Board has spent the money we have contributed. The Board is not above the law. In Service to the Society and for the Committee to Save Our Society, Hossein Ali Qomi (Gregory Rose) From nordmark-request Thu Mar 17 20:13:57 1994 Received: from mail.swip.net (mail.swip.net [192.71.220.11]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id UAA15474 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:13:50 +0100 Received: from spritz.salcom.se by mail.swip.net (8.6.7/2.01) id UAA26341; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:13:47 +0100 Received: from blitz.salcom.se by spritz.salcom.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21467; Thu, 17 Mar 94 20:14:50 +0100 Received: by blitz.salcom.se (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for @spritz.salcom.se:nordmark@ludd.luth.se id AA00537; Thu, 17 Mar 94 20:13:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 20:13:02 +0100 From: scpefo@blitz.salcom.se (Peter Forsberg) Message-Id: <9403171913.AA00537@blitz.salcom.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: Bortavaro Status: RO Hej alla, det {r Tidrik! Jag vill bara meddela att jag fr o m fredag 18 mars {r bortrest i tvenne veckor. Hare bra! /Tidrik +----------------------------------------------------/ /---------------------+ + Peter Forsberg, Salcom Communication AB / / peter@salcom.se + + Nytorpsvagen 7, 183 53 TABY, +46-8-768 00 80 / / + + ------------------------------------------------/ /------------------------+ From nordmark-request Sun Mar 20 20:27:39 1994 Received: from eddie.ludd.luth.se (bubba@eddie.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.8]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA00344 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 20:27:38 +0100 From: "U.J|rgen \hman" Received: (bubba@localhost) by eddie.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) id UAA19161 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 20:27:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199403201927.UAA19161@eddie.ludd.luth.se> Subject: frostheim-ftp To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (sca) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 20:27:08 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 716 Status: RO Salve allihopa, Ulf h{r. Som ni kanske vet har vi ju en ftp server h{r p} luth. Vi har p} den en ftp-site som handlar om sca och s}nt. Ni kan n} den p} ftp.luth.se och den finns i ftp/pub/misc/frostheim Vi f|rs|ker att l{gga in saker d{r som kan vara av intresse f|r Nordmarkare och andra inv}nare i den k{nda v{rlden. Jag har funderat p} en kron-tornerings-statistik. Dvs vilka som var med i vilken tornering, vem som m|tte vem och fick d{ng, vilka som m|ttes i delfinaler och finaler och kanske lite annan kuriosa om och kring torneringarna. Vet n}gon hur jag kan f} tag i uppgifter om krontorneringarna, vilka som var autokrater, sl}ssokrater m.m. vid resp. tornering. Tack f|r mig /Ulf Mj|dtunga, Frostheim. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 08:26:14 1994 Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.2.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA06087 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:26:12 +0100 Received: from ben.dev.upenn.edu by mailgate.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-MAILGATE1.14) id AB05117; Mon, 21 Mar 94 08:26:07 +0100 Registered-Mail-Reply-Requested-By: "ERA.ERAAINA" Received: from mrp.ericsson.se by eds.ericsson.se (PMDF V4.2-15 #1) id <01HA86Y7CUJ48X3B0Y@eds.ericsson.se>; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:25:17 +0100 Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:24:03 +0100 Mr-Received: by mta EDS05; Relayed; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:24:03 +0100 (+0100) Alternate-Recipient: prohibited Disclose-Recipients: prohibited Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:22:00 +0100 From: "ERA.ERAAINA" Subject: ??? To: NORDMARK@LUDD.LUTH.SE Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Ua-Content-Id: yxhWpKAGSsTIAfDM X400-Mts-Identifier: [;30428012304991/1226697@EDS] Hop-Count: 1 Status: RO --- Received from ERA.ERAAINA 08-757 3505 94-03-21 08.22 -> VAX.NORDMARK..LUDD.LUTH.SE..INET -: - - - - - - - - - - > MAIL USER IN VAX AND INTERNET Heloise här. Ährm, en liten stillsam undran : vad är en ftp server ? Liksom hur fungerar den, hur använder jag det (framför allt det) poch vad är det som är så piffigt med den? En förklaring är uppskattad. Går att skicka till min privata adress men det kanske är fler därute som inte heller är särskilt bevandrade bland ettor och nollor. Heloise From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 09:36:09 1994 Received: from eddie.ludd.luth.se (bubba@eddie.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.8]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA06673 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:36:09 +0100 From: "U.J|rgen \hman" Received: (bubba@localhost) by eddie.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) id JAA19976 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:35:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199403210835.JAA19976@eddie.ludd.luth.se> Subject: B}gskyttar To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (sca) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:35:37 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1692 Status: RO Salve allihopa, Ulf h{r Jag hittade f|ljande bland nyheterna och t{nkte att det kanske kunde vara av ett visst intresse f|r er/de som {r/har b}gskyttar i gruppen. Ha ett underbart liv / Ulf Mj|dtunga >From rec.org.sca Mon Mar 21 08:41:55 1994 >From: kdz@sae.com (Douglas Zimmerman) >Newsgroups: rec.org.sca >Subject: Looking for archery officers >Keywords: archery >Message-ID: <1994Mar18.183846.1705@template.com> >Date: 18 Mar 94 18:38:46 GMT >Sender: news@template.com >Reply-To: kdz@template.com >Organization: Template Software >Lines: 24 >As I have posted before, I am starting a new inter-kingdom archery newsletter, >The Free Archer. I would like to find all groups that have active archery >programs, to both list them, and to send their officers a sample issue. > >I would appreciate it if you could send me the name, address, and >phone number of the archery officer(s) in your group. If you also want >to give me an idea of how much archery your group does, that would be great. > >In return, I will send that officer a free copy of The Free Archer, which >will be full of information useful to any archer. > >This offer is also open to any archer. Send me your name and address, >and I'll send you the first issue free. Even if you aren't an archer, >but you know one, I'll be happy to send that person a free copy. > >Subscriptions will be $4/yr (4 issues, including the first one), should >people wish to subscribe after seeing the first issue. > > Your in Service, > Galen Woodwalker, Barony of Storvik, Atlantia > >-- >Douglas Zimmerman kdz@template.com uunet!template!kdz 703-318-1218 >Template Software 13100 Worldgate Dr, Ste 340 Herndon, VA 22070-4382 From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 12:25:37 1994 Received: from toby.ludd.luth.se (bubba@toby.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.22]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA08503 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:25:35 +0100 From: "U.J|rgen \hman" Received: (bubba@localhost) by toby.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) id MAA05608 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:29:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199403211129.MAA05608@toby.ludd.luth.se> Subject: ftp va e d??? To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (sca) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:29:21 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2111 Status: RO Salve alla, Ulf h{r... ...med ett f|rs|k till f|rklaring vad en ftp-server {r och hur den kan anv{ndas. En ftp-server {r en datamaskin d{r det finns en massa filer som {r |ppna f|r allm{nheten. D{r finns filer som {r allm{nna och som d} kan h{mtas hem med hj{lp av ett fil-|verf|rings-program som heter ftp (file-transfer-protocoll). Den h{r ftp-servern drivs av ludd (lule} h|gskolas datorf|rening). F|r att n} ftp-servern kan ni skriva...... 'ftp ftp.luth.se' om allt fungerar och ni kopplas upp s} ska ni f} en fr}ga om namn 'Name (ftp.luth.se:):' d} skriver ni anonymous eller ftp som namn Sedan kommer en fr}ga om password, skriv er e-mail adress som password s} ska ni bli insl{ppta. D} ni {r inne kan ni med hj{lp av de gamla vanliga..... 'cd och cd ..' vandra omkring bland filer och bibliotek. 'lcd och lcd ..' {r kommandon som g}r att ni vandrar omkring i ert eget hembibliotek d} ni h{mtar hem n}got kommer det att hamna d{r ni befinner er sj{lv i ert hembibliotek Ni kan {ven l{sa filer genom att skriva..... 'more ' detta g}r inte om det {r ett bibliotek d} ni hittat n}got ni vill ha hem till er s} ska ni st} i biblioteket d{r filen finns, skriv sedan..... 'get ' s} kommer filen att kopieras till ert eget hembibliotek. Kom ih}g att filen som h{mtas hamnar d{r ni st}r i ert eget bibliotek. (lcd & cd ..) d} ni loggat in kan ni ta er till frostheim-bibioteket som finns under '/ftp/pub/misc/frostheim/' D} ni inte vill vara inkopplad l{ngre s} beh|ver ni bara skriva..... 'bye' d} kopplas ni loss fr}n servern. Om ni inte kommer in s} kan ni kolla om servern {r vid liv genom att skriva..... 'ping olivaw.ludd.luth.se' Slut p} "lektionen" Ha det bra Ulf Mj|dtunga, Frostheim ps. jag h|ll p} att gl|mma bort det mycket anv{ndbara kommandot 'help' som ni kan skriva d} ni blivit insl{ppta. ds. ps2. Om ni fortfarande inte f|rst}r s} {r det s{kert jag som inte kan f|rklara, i s} fall s} {r det bara att h|ra av sig till mig eller Styrbj|rn. Ulf Stybj|rn bubba@ludd.luth.se xordph@ludd.luth.se From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 12:35:25 1994 Received: from toby.ludd.luth.se (bubba@toby.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.22]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA08657 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:35:24 +0100 From: "U.J|rgen \hman" Received: (bubba@localhost) by toby.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) id MAA05620 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:39:13 +0100 Message-Id: <199403211139.MAA05620@toby.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Kr|nik|r??? To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se (sca) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:39:12 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 373 Status: RO Salve igen, Ulf med en undran. Hur har det g}tt med kr|nik|rs{mbetet??? Vad ing}r egentligen i det och hur mycket har man p} sitt ansvar egentligen. Jag {r nyfiken p} om det finns n}gon form av kravspecifikation p} vad kr|nik|ren skall g|ra och inte g|ra, hur mycket kr|nik|ren skall g|ra och inte g|ra, m.m. Tack och hej, ftp:a mycket. :-) Ulf Mj|dtunga, Frostheim. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 20:21:30 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA13891 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:21:29 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA23367 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:21:28 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:21:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199403211921.AA23367@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: pilar From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO William h{r. Vore intresserad av att f} lite r}d fr}n n}gon som gjort pilar med s}gade nockar! William de Corbie From nordmark-request Mon Mar 21 20:20:22 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA13880; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:20:20 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA23357 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4); Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:20:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 20:20:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199403211920.AA23357@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: bubba@ludd.luth.se Cc: nordmark@ludd.luth.se In-Reply-To: "U.J|rgen \hman"'s message of Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:39:12 +0100 (MET) <199403211139.MAA05620@toby.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Kr|nik|r??? From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Peder gick igenom en rimlig kravlista f|r kr|nik|rs{mbetet vid tinget. Om jag minns r{tt var anspr}ken: - rimlig pressl{ggningstid (tidningen ska komma ut f|re n{sta nummers deadline - tidningen ska inneh}lla lista |ver {mbetsm{n, meddelanden fr}n {mbetsm{n, evenemangsannonser, och ett kalendarium - kr|nik|ren ska f|lja normal redaktionell praxis, dvs inte {ndra (eller kommentera) i manus utan att fr}ga f|rfattaren - man ska fixa tidningen inom den givna kostnadsramen 135 kr/}r och prenumerant (h|jning best{mdes vid tinget) - ut|ver detta har man frihet att skapa tidningen som man vill, allt efter f|rm}ga Egna tankar: F|r att vara kr|nik|r m}ste man ha sj{lvdisciplin s} att man kan g|ra det n|dv{ndiga arbetet n{r det m}ste g|ras. Det kr{vs minst en halvtimmes jobb varje dag f|r att knacka in alla manus i datorn, g|ra utskrifter, ber{kna hur sidorna ska se ut, och g|ra sista-minuten-ombrytningar f|r att f} med h|gprioriterat material som kom in sista dagen. Man kan inte samla manus p} h|g och t{nka sig att det ska g} att fixa Sparren n{r allt kommit in (efter deadline) utan n{r en sparre postats m}ste man b|rja genast med n{sta nummer, annars f}r man krupp. Det roliga {r att g|ra en bra tidning. Det tr}kiga {r att klistra 400+ frim{rken, adressetiketter och kuvert (om man anv{nder s}dana). William (pensionerad efter 2 1/2 }r som kr|nik|r) From nordmark-request Tue Mar 22 14:18:22 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA25375 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 14:18:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199403221318.OAA25375@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 22 Mar 94 13:09:49 GMT To: antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, calontir@unl.edu, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, rgoff@mcimail.com, 71233.3035@compuserve.com, 72797.3564@compuserve.com, MMS6824@tntech.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Tue Mar 22 13:09:49 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: OPEN LETTER TO SCA MERCHANTS Content-Type: text Status: RO The following letter may be circulated on networks or printed in any newsletter or by other means, as long as it is kept intact. Please circulate it to any merchant you know. It was written in response to a letter circulated on paper, and in addition to electronic circulation this letter is being mailed to all merchants for whom I have addresses, and is being printed in one or more merchants' newsletters. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Unto the Merchants of the Society, greetings! This letter is written in response to one sent in early March over the names of Mistress Ellisif Flakkari (Monica Cellio), Lord Yaakov HaMizrachi (Harold Feld), and Baron Hossein Al Qomi (Greg Rose), who claim to be representatives of a group called Committee to Save Our Society (CSOS). They circulated their letter claiming that it was informational, but without remedying some glaring errors therein. This letter was written at the behest of some merchants and friends in an effort to correct that misinformation, and to reassure the merchants of our Worlde that things are not as black as they were painted. [NOTE: This letter has been updated as of March 20, 1994.] At the January 22, 1994, meeting of the Board of Directors, the Board took many steps which fundamentally change the fabric of the Society for Creative Anachronism (hereafter, "Society.") There is no dispute about that. Subsequently, three of the Directors resigned, and three persons were appointed to take their places (two former Directors and a new person from the list published in the Winter 1993 issue of TOURNAMENTS ILLUMINUATED). The new list and their addresses appears below. Several members of this new Board have indicated that the actions taken in the January meeting will be reviewed at the April 16, 1994, Board Meeting in the Barony of Caer Anterth Mawr (Milwaukee, Wisconsin). Which actions are these, how would they affect the Society, and what can you do to inform the Board of your feelings on this matter? I. PAY-TO-PLAY The Board announced that in addition to the mandatory membership to hold office, serve as Royalty, and participate in fighting, as of a date in mid- or late-summer, membership would be mandatory to merely participate in the Society. There are two reasons given: raising money to bolster the Corporation's failing coffers, something which all merchants must understand, and trouble obtaining insurance for the Society as a whole. The answers, taken in reverse order, are simple. Each Kingdom can obtain its own insurance policy or policies from a local carrier, which reduces the number of persons and amount of land overed to a size which the carriers can address, instead of having one policy for the entire Society. As for raising the funds, more on that under FINANCES, below. II. TRADEMARKING SCA INSIGNIA I have a personal interest and ability to answer this, because for the last many years the Board has, at various times, sought my counsel in the area of trademark law. You must understand that trademark law is a mundane version of heraldry -- anyone who registers a mark may use it exclusively to designate his or her goods. The Corporation wishes to register the laurel wreath, the phrases "Forward Into the Past" and "Current Middle Ages," and possibly other items which they have not discussed with me. I was never informed that the Corporation wished to register the order badges or Kingdom arms. I did advise them that while the Corporation could in theory register these, as there have been decades of use, there is a problem because other persons have used them widely, therefore diluting the Corporation's claim as water dilutes wine. I have specifically advised the Board, most recently in October of 1993, that they could not begin imposing a licensing fee on those persons who have in the past marketed items with symbols which are later registered as trademarks by the Corporation. In their letter, the CSOS rather heatedly insists that the Corporation will take "entire businesses [built] on these markets that they have created, relying on the proud history and tradition of the use of these insignia in the Society" and "they want the lion's share." They erroneously state that "If the SCA secures these trademarks, they can prevent anyone from using them on books, t-shirts, medallions, and other merchandise." While it is true that, as with registered arms, the Corporation can prevent persons from using their trademarks without permission, the plain fact of the matter is that they have allowed persons to do so for too long. The Corporation will simply not be able to enforce its exclusive right against the merchants whom it has allowed for all of these years to produce items with its marks upon them, and if the Corporation were to try to stop it, its registrations could be destroyed because of the longstanding, widespread use by others. In its letter, CSOS claims rather grandiosely that "remember that they hold all the cards if they get the trademarks, and they don't have to license them to ANYONE." As I noted, untrue. They have already allowed too many people to produce items with the marks on them for far too long, and thus have lost the right, at least as to those persons, to forbid them from continuing to market these items. I have cases and other authority to back me up, and will offer my services to anyone upon whom the Board tries to impose restrictions, as I have advised the Board that they cannot now impose restrictions on those whom they have not restricted over the years. [This is a very simplistic summary, due to space considerations.] III. SCA MARKETPLACE It is true that the Stock Clerk's Office has been redesigned into something called SCA Marketplace. However, the report circulated by CSOS is grossly inaccurate in a number of respects. The person now in charge of the Marketplace has provided detailed responses to the charges levelled by CSOS, as well as her own statement on the subject: A. The SCA Marketplace is being run by a former merchant, Countess 'Queta of Queta's Closet. While she operated an SCA merchant booth for some years, she is no longer an active merchant herself, and many of her publications were sold to the Marketplace. B. It is true that the Marketplace will buy wholesale, sell retail, but will be reselling items at a very reasonable price, not undercutting the merchants. Most merchants who don't make their own goods purchase in this manner. Also, the Marketplace will offer order medallions, but will not insist that these are "the official Order Medallions" and persons will still be able to obtain medallions wherever they wish. C. As for the SCA Marketplace getting an exclusive right to sell an item, so that even the artisan won't be able to sell it -- THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ANY WAY. The SCA Marketplace will be another outlet for merchants to sell items that they can produce in quantity. Again, with the Medallions, it will offer them as a service to persons who cannot obtain them otherwise. [This from the personin charge.] D. Regarding the allegation that there will be a "licensing fee" for any merchant who wishes to sell at *ANY* SCA Event -- a once-a-year fee of (last I heard) $200.00 without which the merchant cannot sell at any Events -- this is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. Countess 'Queta seemed horrified to hear this one, and has issued the following statement: "As usual with rumors, those concerning the SCA Marketplace are incorrect. There has never been a any consideration given, under any circumstances, to charging any sort of "merchanting/licensing fee" to merchants selling at any SCA event. I would love to know where this rumor got started, because it is blatantly incorrect. "Also, there is NO exclusivity implied or expected. I will be looking first for items from SCA artisans/merchants, yes. The Marketplace will be expanding their line to include products made and/or sold by SCA merchants and artisans. If you have merchandise for sale you feel would benefit the SCA, please let me know. "I am definitely looking for books [to purchase] from publishers, as well, and we will be buying them wholesale, but will be offering merchandise at a reasonable profit. "Please call or write me. I will be happy to clear up any misconceptions or end any rumors." Harriett Stetser (aka Countess Enriqueta Isabel de Reyes y Mora, OP, OL) 5703 19th Avenue South Gulfport, FL 33707 813/381-1238 (until 11 PM Eastern) E. In its letter, CSOS stated that "If you are not a member, you will need to become one in order to sell." However, this issue has been suspended and will be revisited, and will probably be dropped. There was also an allowance, for those who simple "visit," for a short-term, unpaid "guest membership," which could cover merchants who sell only at Pennsic or another major Event. While CSOS claims that "the Board wants to use your money to take over the markets created by the SCA merchants," they have failed to determine any truth behind this allegation. It is true that the Board sees the Marketplace are more of a moneymaker than the Stock Clerk was, since it will provide goods other than just the SCA publications. However, it is very clear from Countess 'Queta and other sources that the Marketplace will not "take over" many of the areas in which the merchants serve the Society. Which leads to a great issue: IV. CORPORATE FINANCES From projected Budget figures issued shortly after the January, 1994, Board Meeting, it appears that the Corporation is having some problems. The Budget has jumped in some areas over 100% without much explanation. The overall Budget increase is some 63%, as CSOS stated, but the Board has selected some rather unreasonable ways of raising this amount. As fellow merchants, I am sure that you understand the importance of having a reasonable budget and staying within it, and reasonably anticipating an increase in revenue. Several of us have been working to examine the financial records and determine exactly what has caused the increases. This should be an agenda item at the April, 1994, Board meeting. We have drafted some proposals for reducing expenses which it appears the Board will consider either at the meeting or shortly thereafter. One item of note is an embezzlement a few years ago which has left a hole in the finances, and which has not and probably will not be repaid. I disagree strongly with the CSOS statement that "The Board of Directors has shown in the last several months that they care far more about the bottom line than about Society traditions." It was clear in January, and is even more clear now, that the Board was not given adequate time to digest all of the financial information which was handed to it a few hours before the January Board Meeting was to start, and ordered to make decisions concerning the Budget before the Board Meeting was allowed to start. There are factors at work here even out of the Board's control, and I and the others who assisted me in this letter hope that they will regain the control they need to run the Society appropriately. It is true that the Society is no longer a backyard club, and should not be run as one. However, there are many models which could be studied to determine the best way to run the Society, to offer the greatest service to the members while complying with mundane rules about corporate operation. I and those who join me are advocating working within the structure of the Corporation and the Society to create an entity which reflects the Society's culture while meeting these requirements, and we hope that you will join this effort. How can you do this? Write to the Board members, or call them. (Addresses are posted below.) Contact Countess 'Queta (address and telephone number above) to discuss the Marketplace and learn the FACTS for yourself. Don't trust rumours, and don't let scare tactics force you to make the same type of ill-judged decisions that were inflicted upon us at the January Board Meeting. One thing I have learned from being a Merchant, is that there is strength in those numbers. Anyone who fails to recognize it, does so at their own peril. In Service to the Dreame, ---= Morgan Cely Cain * [m/k/a Margo Lynn Hablutzel, Esq.] hablutzelml@attmail.com * former merchant, assisting in the Merchant Caravan at Pennsic %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Members of the Board of Directors Duchess Ysabeau Cameron (Atlantia, past/current chairman of the Board) Elizabeth Johnson, 7875 Wintercross Lane, Springfield, VA 22152 Master Giovanni di Sienna (Outlands) A. J. Riviezzo, 2323 South Troy #210-D, Aurora, CO 80014 (706) 693-0198 Lady Bronwen of Irenwold (Atenveldt) L. Jane Richards, 2925 South 7th Street West, Missoula, MT 59801-2021 (406) 721-9658 Duke Randall of the Dark (East) Randall Tatro, 164 Everest Road, Milton, VT 05468 (802) 893-6831 Count Cire of Greymoor (An Tir, past director, current Treasurer) Eric Mohr, PO Box 59821, Renton, WA 98058 Duke John Bearkiller (Meridies) John Fulton, 2494 Hollins, Memphis, TN 38112 (901) 452-9881 (BEFORE 10:00 pm Eastern) PLEASE remember that these are people with lives, jobs, and often small children. Be cautious if calling later at night. From nordmark-request Tue Mar 22 18:56:41 1994 Received: from watson.ibm.com (watson.ibm.com [129.34.139.4]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA04207 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 18:56:34 +0100 Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9371; Tue, 22 Mar 94 12:56:12 EST Received: from YKTVMV by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 3257; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 12:56:06 EST Received: from blinn.watson.ibm.com by yktvmv.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 22 Mar 94 12:56:04 EST Received: by blinn.watson.ibm.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/930311) id AA21508; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 12:55:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 12:55:48 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) Message-Id: <9403221755.AA21508@blinn.watson.ibm.com> To: sca-reform@mit.edu Comment: Please forward to all SCA nets Subject: Impeachment petitions Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes Status: RO Greetings from Arval! If you have any completed impeachment petitions, please mail them in immediately. Mail completed petitions to: Josh Mittleman 156 Grand St. Croton, NY 10520 USA =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Tue Mar 22 21:16:29 1994 Received: from meryl.csd.uu.se (meryl.csd.uu.se [130.238.11.31]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA11965 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 21:16:27 +0100 Received: by meryl.csd.uu.se id AA23881 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for nordmark@ludd.luth.se); Tue, 22 Mar 1994 21:16:22 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 21:16:22 +0100 Message-Id: <199403222016.AA23881@meryl.csd.uu.se> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Subject: [mittle@watson.ibm.com: Impeachment petitions] From: Sender: vader@csd.uu.se X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 Status: RO Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 12:55:48 -0500 From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) To: sca-reform@mit.edu Comment: Please forward to all SCA nets Subject: Impeachment petitions Reply-To: mittle@watson.ibm.com X-External-Networks: yes X-Charset: LATIN1 X-Char-Esc: 29 Greetings from Arval! If you have any completed impeachment petitions, please mail them in immediately. Mail completed petitions to: Josh Mittleman 156 Grand St. Croton, NY 10520 USA =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@watson.ibm.com From nordmark-request Wed Mar 23 15:59:25 1994 Received: from nomina.lu.se (Nomina.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA24781 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 1994 15:59:23 +0100 Received: from macpost.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA26517; Wed, 23 Mar 94 16:02:17 +0100 Subject: Dubbelkrig i Torsheim! To: Nordmark@ludd.luth.se From: Janna.Spanne@kansli.lth.se Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 15:59:48 +0100 Message-Id: <940323.155948.46987@macpost.lu.se> Status: RO Till alla Nordmarks inv}nare! P} grund av kaoset kring kr|nik|rsbytet (om och n{r vi nu f}r n}gon ny kr|nik|r) har den riktiga annonsen f|r Dubbelkriget tydligen kommit p} avv{gar. Till min stora fasa konstaterade jag ig}r att den _inte {r med i marsnumret_! Jag ber alla Pratl}dekolleger om hj{lp i det h{r n|dl{get. H{r {r annonsen: l{s den, skriv ut den, sprid den. Under de n{rmaste dagarna ska jag ocks} g|ra ett utskick p} papper till Nordmarks lokaldrotsar, f|r att f|rs|ka n} }tminstone en del av v}ra icke-datoriserade landsm{n. Men du som l{ser det h{r, hj{lp till att sprida informationen till alla intresserade! Och maila g{rna in din egen anm{lan redan idag! - Tack f|r hj{lpen! /Catrin DUBBELKRIGET Kriget om Magna Carta och det traditionsrika Kn{ckebr|dskriget utk{mpas i Torsheim den 7-15 maj, sponsrat av Baroniet Nordmark. Andra krigiska aktiviteter: b}gskytte, f{ktning och kurser f|r krigsmarskar, f{ltsk{rar och vattenb{rare. Fredliga syssels{ttningar: konst- och vetenskapst{vling, universitetet, marknad, ridning, taverna. S|ndagen den 8 maj h}ller vi |ppet hus f|r den lokala allm{nheten. Konst- och vetenskapst{vlingen ger krigspo{ng i Magna Carta. F|r universitetet planeras kurser i l{derarbete, smide, dans, skomakeri, m m, ut|ver dem med krigisk anknytning. Fler f|rslag v{lkomna, liksom l{rare. Marknadsst}nd kan bokas f|r den som har n}got att s{lja; best{ll s} snart som m|jligt. Det kommer att finnas h{star vissa dagar, men ocks} regler f|r var h{star och h{stprylar f}r vara med tanke p} allergiker. Tavernan ska servera snacks p} dagtid och enkla matr{tter p} kv{llstid; |lr{ttigheter (inkl stark cider) torsdag-l|rdag, |vriga dagar l{sk och l{tt|l. Dubbelkriget {r ett _t{ltevenemang_ och {ger rum p} Kn{ckebr|dskrigets vanliga sk}deplats, H|rrs Nyg}rd utanf|r Sj|bo (ingen gatuadress; telefon 0416-140 34). Vi |ppnar l|rdagen den 7 maj kl 12 och st{nger s|ndagen den 15 maj kl 12. Att komma dit utan bil: t}g till Lund eller flyg till Sturup och buss till Lund, d{rifr}n buss 160 till Sj|bo. Meddela autokraten (g{rna i god tid innan) att du beh|ver h{mtas och n{r. Att komma dit med bil: fr}n Lund |sterut f|rbi Dalby till Sj|bo, forts{tt |sterut, vid Anklam sv{ng v{nster, efter 2:a g}rden p} h|ger sida skylt H|rrs Nyg}rd, grusv{g }t h|ger. SCA-skyltar kommer att finnas. Plats kan reserveras f|r t ex kanton- eller hush}llsl{ger. Det finns ocks} ett (mycket begr{nsat) antal sovplater inomhus om man av n}got t ex medicinskt sk{l inte kan t{lta. Den som har sv}rt att ordna egen mat kan f|rbest{lla frukostar/luncher i samband med anm{lan. Ska du laga egen mat, ta g{rna med kylv{ska. Inga "offentliga" kylsk}p finns, d{remot m|jlighet att frysa kylelement. H|rrs Nyg}rd har endast kallt vatten i duscharna. Varma duschar finns p} Sj|bo camping, sam}kning ordnas om intresse finns. _Skriftlig anm{lan_ till autokraten med posten eller via email, _senast m}ndagen den 25 april_. Ange: namn, adress, telefon, ev vilka andra du betalar f|r, n{r du/ni kommer och reser, om du/ni vill ha (= betalar f|r) frukost/lunch och vilka dagar. Deltagaravgift 200 kr oavsett hur l{nge du stannar. Rabatt 20 kr till SCA-medlemmar (kopia av medlemskort eller etikett fr}n TI). Frukostar 15 kr/st, luncher 30 kr/st. F|rsta frukosten 8/5, sista lunchen 14/5. Betalning till SKA-Torsheim, 33 16 49-4, senast den 25 april. Krigsautokrat f|r Magna Carta-kriget: Hans Majest{t Morgan, Drachenwalds Konung (Morgan Broman, St}ltr}dsv{gen 38, 161 31 Bromma, 08-704 86 89, mabr@xerxes.sweden.hp.com) Krigsautokrat f|r Kn{ckebr|dskriget: Lord Philip McBride (Marcus Hellqvist, Sj|gatan 2, 223 63 Lund, 046-15 22 31) Autokrat f|r Dubbelkriget (praktiska upplysningar, fredliga aktiviteter, anm{lningar): Lady Catrin Gwynystlum (J G Spanne, Nyckelkroken 50, 226 47 Lund, 046-109750 jobb, 129985 hem inte efter kl 21, Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se) Janna.Spanne@Kansli.LTH.se From nordmark-request Wed Mar 23 18:00:18 1994 Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net (mailgate.prod.aol.net [192.203.190.181]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA26384 for ; Wed, 23 Mar 1994 18:00:10 +0100 From: chronique@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA26033; Wed, 23 Mar 94 11:58:05 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Sender: "chronique" Message-Id: <9403231157.tn52405@aol.com> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.se Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 11:57:57 EST Subject: Chronique #8 Status: RO Unto the noble and gracious readers of our journal Chronique does Brion Thornbird ap Rhys, Earl and Knight, send greetings and wishes of good health! Chronique #8 is now complete and will be shipped out this week. For those of you who were kind enough to answer some of the questions, you will receive a complimentary copy in less than two weeks. I received an overwhelming (67pp, single spaced 10 point type) response to the questions--and expanded the usual 12-18pp of answers to nearly 30. The table of contents for the rest of the issue is as follows: Questions on William the Marshal / Nobility Calendar--Pas d'armes and Period Tournament Formats A Challenge from Baron Tristan of Pheonix Hall CONSTRUCTION OF THE KNIGHTLY SHIELD, Theodore F. Monnich Curator of the South Carolina State Museum, Mr. Monnich has done a really fine job of surveying the techniques of construction for these shields. Halftone photographs are included, as are exploded drawings of construction layers and strapping. A KNIGHTLY HERMIT INSTRUCTS A SQUIRE IN THE WAYS OF CHIVALRY Excerpts from The Book of the Order of Chivalry by Ramon Lull A modern English translation introducing the work and giving passages of interest for those who would be squires and grow into knighthood by that road. The full translated text is also available in monograph form. THE COMPANY OF SAINT MICHAEL, Hugh T. Knight A tournament society that dovetails within the SCA, the article introduces the company, it's goals, techniques, and beliefs. There are now five or six such companies--the Company of Saint George --West/ Caid(Chronique #3); the Company of the Star-- Trimaris (Chronique #10, forthcoming), and the Company of Saint Mark--Atlantia?? (Chronique #10, forthcoming). The movement towards specialization within the SCA is something that Chronique aims to keep a particlar eye on as it develops and adds to the spice of the SCA experience. WHAT IS A SQUIRE? Joseph Latta Commentary on what it means to be a squire in modern tournament re-enactments SOME NOTES ON SQUIRES IN HISTORY, Brian R. Price References on the derivations of the word "squire" and it's roots, sources for further information, and what duties were expected of squires. EXCERPTS FROM BRION THORNBIRD'S BOOK OF THE TOURNAMENT Two essays from the forthcoming book--The Office of Squire and The Accolade of Knighthood ORDINARY KNIGHTS AND SQUIRES: ENRICHING OUR CHIVALRIC RE- CREATION. David S. Hoornstra An article examining problems caused by the current terminology of the words 'fighter' and observations on how we might address the problem. Part I of II. READING LISTS FOR SQURIES: Three complete lists of books for squires REVIEWS: The Chaucerian Handbook Classified Advertisements Puzzler Back Issues / Subscriptions For those of you who are interested in receiving a copy ($5), subscribing ($16/year, $30/2 years), or receiving all the back issues ($44) with a subscription, please send me an email note including your complete name, sca name, address and telephone. I will include a bill with the first copy you receive. Chronique is continuing to grow at a breakneck pace and the interest in period sources for the chivalric ideals, combat standards, arms and armour, and tournament formats is continuing to increase. Chronique hopes to chronicle these advances, and encourage them by infusing new sources, observations, and recounting the successes and trials of those who strive to add authenticity and chivalric demeanor to our tournament experience. From nordmark-request Mon Mar 28 10:20:54 1994 Received: from hplb.hpl.hp.com (hplb.hpl.hp.com [15.255.59.2]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA08876 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:20:48 +0200 Received: from hpustoix.sweden.hp.com by hplb.hpl.hp.com; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:18:10 +0100 Received: by hpustoix.sweden.hp.com (1.36.108.7/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18311; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:20:26 +0200 From: Morgan Broman Message-Id: <9403280820.AA18311@hpustoix.sweden.hp.com> Subject: Drachenwald Crown Results !! To: sca@mc.lcs.mit.edu (SCA Rialto) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 94 10:20:25 METDST Cc: nordmark@mother.ludd.luth.se (Nordmark mailing list (SCA)) Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] Status: RO Greetings to the People of the Known World From Morgan et Alienor, Rex et Regina This last weekend the Crown Tourney of Drachenwald was held. After a day of good and chivalrous fighting the final saw Lord Harald Folkesson against Lord Wlfric of Derneford. The final was fought as a best out of three rounds. In the first round Lord Harald neatly caught Lord Wlfric with a quick shot, to the face, uderneath his guard. In the second round Lord Wlfric payed back through a swift and aggressive attack that caught Lord Harald by a little suprise. So now excitement was at its peak...everyone was watching closely.... The third round both started out a little carefully, then Lord Wlfric launched a series of fast shots, one of which caught Lord Harald on the head......! The results of this weekends Crown Tourney, held in Drachenwald is that Lord Wlfric of Derneford and Lady Eira Eriksdotter are the new Crown Prince and Princess of Drachenwald. For the new Crown Prince and Princess of Drachenwald... VIVANT, VIVANT, VIVANT !!!! The event was wonderful, and the fighters told us they liked the form of the tournament. They got to fight a lot and truly enjoyed it...;) Morgan et Alienor Rex et Regina -- HP : Morgan Broman mabr@sweden.hp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is life, but a sequence of fragments of time put together in a random fashion, to create eternity... [R] Shade ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp. From nordmark-request Wed Mar 30 00:12:11 1994 Received: from bronze.lcs.mit.edu (BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU [18.30.0.254]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id AAA04907 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 1994 00:11:49 +0200 Received: by bronze.lcs.mit.edu id AA08087; Tue, 29 Mar 94 17:04:21 EST Date: Tue, 29 Mar 94 17:04:21 EST From: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Message-Id: <9403292204.AA08087@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> To: NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: BoD Withdraws From Settlement Status: RO Unto the good gentles of the Known World does Baron Hossein Ali Qomi and the Committee to Save Our Society send greetings! On Thursday, March 17, seven members of CSOS, acting in concert with four additional plaintiffs, announced our intention to file suit against SCA, Inc. and its responsible officers. This suit was to obtain a writ of mandamus compelling the corporation to disclose financial information to the advisory membership as required by By-Laws Article X. Our counsel had told us that he would file that Thursday afternoon, but he was prevented by a court appearance that ran over schedule. In the interim, we decided that it was worth trying yet another time to resolve the problem without a suit. Accordingly, on Friday, we requested him to delay filing for several days, so that we might make one final effort to open negotiations with the Board of Directors aimed at gaining access to this information and establishing permanently the right of members to this information. We attempted to negotiate in good faith with the Board and believed, for a time, that the chairman of the Board, Elizabeth Johnson, had agreed to negotiate a settlement which would have provided all the information for which we asked to the membership and guaranteed their permanent access. Sadly, we have learned that the Board Chairman has withdrawn this agreement to settle the suit. The following is a record of the events surrounding this development: On Friday, March 18, I spoke at length with John Fulton at Gulf War III. He assured me that he supported full disclosure of financial data to the membership and believed that the Board would be willing to make a binding agreement to do so. He suggested that we contact Elizabeth Johnson as soon as possible. On Saturday, March 19, Monica Cellio attempted to reach Elizabeth Johnson to propose a settlement to our lawsuit. Ms. Johnson was not at home and Ms. Cellio left a message on her answering machine. On Tuesday, March 22, before 7 pm, Ms. Johnson left a message on Ms. Cellio's answering machine returning the call from Saturday morning and saying she had been out of town and wanted to talk to her. On Tuesday, March 22, at approximately 10 pm, Ms. Cellio called Ms. Johnson. Ms. Johnson said we should be able to see the books, but she wanted to talk to Mr. Provine, the executive director, first to see why he was denying the request. She promised to call Ms. Cellio at work "early tomorrow afternoon" once she'd had a chance to talk to him. Ms. Cellio told her that we intended to file in the next "day or two". On Wednesday, March 23, at approximately 2 pm, Ms. Johnson called Ms. Cellio and said that she was ordering access to the books. She said that some information only existed electronically and we would need to schedule a visit so as not to disrupt the staff, but that Wendy Roeder could come over right away to look at the IRS Forms 990. Ms. Cellio told her that our counsel had advised filing and immediately settling with a consent decree, in which the court "registers" the settlement like one registers a deed; such a consent decree is equally binding on both the defendants and the plaintiffs in the suit and is the usual way in which such suits are settled. Ms. Johnson said this sounded fine to her. Ms. Cellio told her our lawyer, Mr. Goldsmith, would be calling her shortly to work out the details of the settlement and answer any questions she had. Ms. Johnson indicated that she understood that she and Goldsmith would work out the specifics of the settlement agreement. Ms. Johnson was absolutely clear on three points of agreement: (1) Members would be allowed free access to the books of record (except that employees' salaries would be listed by category, and not by individual employee); (2) A settlement indicating that the Board recognized the right of advisory members to access to the books would be registered with the court; and (3) Ms. Johnson would speak with Mr. Goldsmith on that same day to work out the specific details of the settlement document, but it would include the substance of the first two points. Ms. Cellio contacted Mr. Goldsmith, our attorney, apprised him of the agreement to settle, and instructed him, pursuant to that agreement, to file the suit and to contact Ms. Johnson to work out the details of the formal settlement document. Mr. Goldsmith phoned Ms. Johnson and got her answering machine. He left a message for her to return his call, so that they could work out the settlement details. She never responded to that message. On the evening of Wednesday, March 23, the Board of Directors held a conference call meeting at which the settlement proposal was discussed. On Thursday, March 24, at 9:45 am, Ms. Cellio received an email message from Randall Tatro. The message started with a dubious apology for a threat Mr. Tatro had made in a telephone conversation with Ms. Cellio on Thursday, March 17. In that conversation, he indicated that if a suit were filed, the plaintiffs' memberships would be revoked. We chose at the time not to publicize this threat, since we did not want to further inflame the situation. Mr. Tatro's email message read: "Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 9:38:46 -0500 (EST) From: To: Monica.Cellio@NL.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: appoligy/info Monica, Vis reminded that I should follow up on something. My reaction to your suit was drastic, overkill and not thought through. It is unlikely that the board will do a level 3 banishment just for filing a suit. I strongly urge you to not file. The repercussions may be long lasting. The SCA has a policy of defending itself in the strongest possible way. This will mean that the SCA will appose the suit and argue that we are not required to give the information. Because of the clause in the By-laws that give the Board sole right to interpret the by-laws and Capora, there is a very good chance that the courts will find that the only information that we are 'required' to release is the 990's. I think that you have already been informed that the board has instructed the Corporate office to release much of the information that you requested. The suit if filed could force the board into a position of defending a policy that in my opinion it does not want to defend. Thank you for your time and consideration. Randall" Ms. Cellio immediately called Ms. Johnson for a clarification of whether Mr. Tatro's message was a response from the Board. Ms. Cellio got her answering machine and left a message asking her to call ASAP, leaving both work and home numbers. Later that afternoon Ms. Cellio sent email to Ms. Johnson and received a form letter reply asking her not to contact Ms. Johnson at work. That same afternoon Mr. Goldsmith filed the writ of mandamus action in the Superior Court of Santa Clara County, California, in accordance with the verbal agreement between the plaintiffs and the chairman of the Board of Directors of SCA, Inc. Mr. Seeley, the corporate counsel for SCA, Inc., refused to accept service of the suit for the directors -- an extraordinary deviation from the custom in corporate litigation -- forcing us to serve process to the directors outside California by mail. Mr. Provine and Ms. Signoretti were served process at the corporate office. Mr. Seeley's refusal to accept service will statutorily delay the suit's hearing date by ten days. That same afternoon Wendy Roeder went to the corporate office to inspect the IRS Forms 990. Mr. Provine, the executive director, refused to photocopy the documents or to allow Ms. Roeder to bring her own portable photocopying equipment to the corporate office to do this copying. While Mr. Provine's action was arguably compliant with the federal statute, California statutes require non-profit corporations to provide _copies_ of the 990s. He required her to spend an hour and a half copying data from the forms by hand. Not all the required forms were present in the materials provided by Mr. Provine, despite the advance arrangements and his assurance that all the required forms would be available. As this was going on, I called John Fulton, who informed me that the Board was still willing to settle and characterized Mr. Tatro's email message as "inappropriate." He asked us to contact Ms. Johnson immediately, since she had told the Board members during the previous evening's conference call that a settlement would be worked out. He assured me that Mr. Tatro's message did not reflect the Board's decision. On Thursday, March 24, at 7 pm, Ms. Cellio called Ms. Johnson again. Again she got the machine and left a message reiterating that she was confused about current status due to Mr. Tatro's message and the fact that Ms. Johnson had not yet talked to Mr. Goldsmith, as they had agreed. On Thursday, March 24, at 9:15 pm, Ms. Cellio received a message on her answering machine from Ms. Johnson saying that she didn't understand why we had gone ahead and filed, and saying that she would be out that evening. Ms. Cellio left a message asking her to call her back and that she would be up until about 1 am. Ms. Johnson did not return the call. On the afternoon of Friday, March 25, I called John Fulton and informed him of the message from Ms. Johnson which Ms. Cellio had received the previous evening. He told me that it must be some sort of misunderstanding, since he believed that the Board had decided to settle the suit. He again urged us to contact Ms. Johnson to clear the misunderstanding up. Ms. Cellio and I both attempted to contact Ms. Johnson without success. On Friday, March 25, Ms. Cellio returned home at 10:45 pm and received the following message from Ms. Johnson on her answering machine: "Hi, this is Liz Johnson returning Monica's call. Thanks for calling back. Randy in fact did not misunderstand what we talked about in the conference call on Wednesday. I put your suggestion to the directors and the reaction was uniformly negative. When you and I talked, I said I didn't see any reason why not; well they told me several reasons why not and on balance I have to agree with them. They were not interested in signing up to something that they'd never seen, that they don't know the terms of, which, you see, I think is quite reasonable. They told me they thought it was an inappropriate way to set corporate policy, which I think is probably true, having an outside agency do it for us. We're concerned about getting tied to procedures or definitions that either will not meet the needs of the future but which we will be tied to permanently. And you also can see, actually this is more my concern than theirs, given the confusion and disruption of this latest attempt, that going through the courts just simply won't allow for the kinds of provisions we've had to impose this time, for example not disrupting the staff in their normal work. We also discussed the actually drafting a policy that would cover access to financial records and Eric Mohr, the treasurer, is going to be putting one together for us to review and agree on, which I hope you all will find satisfactory. But, no, Randy did not misunderstand, he did report to you that the board was in fact not interested in the the procedure of filing and settling immediately. So that, I hope, will clear things up for you." In conversations on Saturday, March 26, with directors Eric Mohr and John Fulton, I was told that the Board was committed in principle to disclosure of financial records, but was opposed to any arrangement whereby an outside agency could compel the Board to take any action. Both assured me that we would be permitted to examine and photocopy the financial records on Wednesday, March 30, at the corporate office in Milpitas. However, both also indicated that it was extremely unlikely that the Board would be willing to allow any authority outside the SCA to guarantee that the advisory members would always have this right. Mr. Fulton told me that he had been confused and had thought that the consent decree was separate from the settlement. I told him that the consent decree was the usual means for making such settlements binding on all parties. In a nutshell, the Board says we can look at the books for now, but it won't guarantee that right in an enforcible way for any of the other members, nor will it guarantee that right of the members permanently. There is nothing currently preventing the Board from rescinding By-Laws Article X and permanently closing off access to the financial records. Our struggle has always been for accountability. Accountability _means_ permanently enforcing the rights of the membership and forcing the corporation to recognize those rights. The right to inspect the financial records was already enshrined in the By- Laws when the corporation adamantly refused to let anyone see them. If we cannot rely on the corporation's guarantee of rights through the By-Laws, despite it's position in a legally enforcible document, we have absolutely no reason to rely on any other guarantee the Board may make. We did not file this action to get a one-time look at the books -- we filed it to ensure that the membership can get the information to which they have a right whenever they need it. We filed it to get the membership's _right_ enforced. The events since January 22 have shown that the Board cannot always be trusted to protect our rights. We need protections of those rights separate and apart from promises which any future Board can repudiate. That is why we have gone to court. We will not stop until there is a mechanism independent of the Board which absolutely guarantees the right of members to the financial data showing how our money is being spent. Our suit will not go away short of enforcible guarantees that the membership will always have this right. We are deeply disheartened that the Board has not yet learned this lesson. In Service to the Society, and for the Committee, Hossein Ali Qomi Baron, Lion of Ansteorra Chairman, CSOS (Gregory F. Rose) The following are the named plaintiffs in the mandamus action to compel the corporation to make full financial disclosure and guarantee the membership's permanent right to disclosure: Monica Cellio (Mistress Ellisif Flakkari) [CSOS] Wendy Roeder (Mistress Gwendolyn the Rat-Keeper) Mark Schuldenfrei (Lord Tibor of Rock Valley) [CSOS] Rebecca Anne Pearlman Feld (Lady Rivka bat Shaul) Nigel R. Haslock (Lord Fiacha MacNeill of Glencar) [CSOS] Linda M. Haslock (Lady Isabell de Marmande) Gregory Rose (Baron Hossein Ali Qomi) [CSOS] J. Terry Nutter (Lady Angharad ver' Rhuawn) [CSOS] David Schroeder (Master Bertram of Bearington) [CSOS] Amy Guildroy (Mistress Eromene Aspasia of Constantinople) Joshua Mittleman (Master Arval Benicouer) [CSOS] From nordmark-request Wed Mar 30 02:46:08 1994 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id CAA06691 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 1994 02:46:02 +0200 Message-Id: <199403300046.CAA06691@mother.ludd.luth.se> From: hablutzelml@attmail.com (Margo Lynn Hablutzel ) Date: 30 Mar 94 00:33:58 GMT To: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose), NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@MIT.EDU, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Received: from hablutzelml by attmail; Wed Mar 30 00:33:58 GMT 1994 Phone: +1 312 220 9140 Fax-Phone: +1 312 220 9261 Subject: Re: CSOS Suit Against BoD In-Reply-To: your message <9403292204.AA08087@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> of Tue Mar 29 17:04:21 -0500 1994 Content-Type: text Status: RO I was very interested to read the lengthy document by Baron Hossein concerning the lawsuit/petition by CSOS. Especially of interest to me was the fact that another group has obtained over 400 pages of financial and legal data concerning the Society, the most recent of which is dated earlier this month, at a cost of under US$100.00. It also took this group less than a week from the date of request to receive all the documents. And THEY were allowed to use a photocopier! I regret that CSOS has had such difficulty in obtaining the information they seek, and I wish them all the best in their continued efforts. ---= Morgan Cely Cain From nordmark-request Thu Mar 31 16:17:36 1994 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA29470 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 1994 16:17:35 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA29223; Thu, 31 Mar 94 16:17:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 16:17:32 +0200 From: Robert Hedstr|m Message-Id: <9403311417.AA29223@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> To: nordmark@ludd.luth.SE Subject: Fraaga om dubbelkriget.. Status: RO Hejsan, jag undrar vad det aer som goer det skaeligt att ta ut 200:- i plats avgift foer dubbelkriget? Tacksam foer svar... Sven g From nordmark-request Fri Apr 1 06:50:20 1994 Received: from bronze.lcs.mit.edu (BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU [18.30.0.254]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id GAA08745 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 1994 06:50:12 +0200 Received: by bronze.lcs.mit.edu id AA23212; Thu, 31 Mar 94 23:45:05 EST Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 23:45:05 EST From: greg@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Message-Id: <9404010445.AA23212@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> To: NORTH@bransle.ucs.mun.ca, antir@kwantlen.bc.ca, calontir@unl.edu, carolingia@bloom-beacon.mit.edu, e5@uriacc.uri.edu, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie, lgrant@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie, nordmark@ludd.luth.se, northshield@stolaf.edu, sca-reform@mit.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu Subject: Non-Disclosure Disclosure Status: RO Unto the good gentles of the Known World does Baron Hossein Ali Qomi and the Committee to Save Our Society send greetings! The Board of Directors of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc., agreed to allow one of the plaintiffs in the petition for a writ of mandamus a single visit to inspect the books of the Society. Accordingly, Wendy Roeder visited the offices as agreed, on Wednesday, March 30th. Despite repeated promises, the corporation did not permit that inspection. Mr. Provine provided photocopies of the relevant IRS Form 990s as he is required by California law. Some of these forms were still incomplete. Mr. Provine also provided four pages of a report from the accounting firm of Ashby & Sullivan, and an explanatory cover letter from that firm. That cover letter included the astonishing admission that A compilation is limited to presenting in the form of financial statements information that is the representation of management. We have not audited or reviewed the accompanying financial statements and, accordingly, do not express an opinion or any other form of assurance on them. Management has elected to omit substantially all of the disclosures required by generally accepted accounting principles. If the omitted disclosures were included in the financial statements, they might influence the user's conclusions about the company's financial position, results of operations, and cash flows. Accordingly, these financial statements are not designed for those who are not informed about such matters. In other words, the corporation won't even disclose financial information _to its own accountants_ which would allow anyone to independently determine if there are substantial irregularities. I spoke with John Fulton on the evening of March 30 and he told me that we were supposed to have received access to the books and budgets. John Fulton is an honest man, and I believe in his good intentions, but enough is enough. Mr. Provine gave us nothing but a PR handout which even the accountants won't stand behind, F"2 done that). If Mr. Provine is thwarting the Board's alleged desire to open the books for inspection, then let the Board fire him _now_. And open the books _now._ If the Board is just stringing us along, it's time for them to put up or shut up. If the Board continues to act as if it is hiding something, then reasonable people will assume that the Board _is_ hiding something. We don't know why the Board refuses to make full disclosure. One possibility is past or current criminal wrongdoing. Another possibility is that the books are in such shabbles that they would be ipso facto proof of the Board's historical lack of competence and fiduciary care for the corporation. In either case it is _our_ money and we have the right to know the facts -- all the facts, not just what the Board finds convenient to tell us. If the Board is concealing criminal wrongdoing or fiduciary irresponsibility, then the mundane authorities should be involved immediately. Children hide their mistakes because they fear punishment. Adults admit their mistakes and try to fix them. We have less to fear from the mundane authorities than from a corporation run by children. This is a real moral problem for many of us. If the corporation behaves as if it is concealing a crime, are we abetting that concealment by failing to involve the mundane authorities? If the Board is concealing past wrongdoing, impropriety, or fiduciary irresponsibility, then it should approach the mundane authorities immediately to resolve the problems and prevent bigger problems. If the corporation continues to stonewall and refuse disclosure, then it will only strengthen the impression that it has something important to hide. If the corporation continues to stonewall and refuse disclosure, then we will have no choice but to bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate authorities -- the Office of the Attorney General of the State of California and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. If we ask for help to fix our problems now, we can get them fixed with the least possible bother. If the corporation continues to conceal our problems, the authorities will become involved inevitably -- and we will look like we all had guilty knowledge. Full disclosure saves the SCA, Inc. Concealment destroys it. The choice _is_ that simple. In Service to the Society, and for the Committee, Hossein Ali Qomi, Baron, Lion of Ansteorra Chairman, CSOS (Gregory Rose)